How would have the Canadians and British faired in the war? How vital was it in hanging on until the Americans actually joined the war.

Canada put all resources towards the war. I think that the supplies that the US sent whilst preparing themselves for the war helped but were limited in how much they could send. With that said, I think Canada and Britain would've been hurt much more, but would've survived before the tides of the war changed.

Well you might want to read this,


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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

Without the US in the war, one of two things would be the outcome:

1) The Germans defeat the Russians outright, although at huge cost.

2) The Germans and Russians fight to a stalemate.

And, the Commonwealth can beat the Germans in N Africa and Sicily, and could control the sea and air over the med but thats it. The commonwealth could never invade France and win.

You forgot the third....

Russia still defeats Germany but it takes a year longer to do it and costs more lives.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Yes, you're right.

The US participation in the fight against Hitler guaranteed an allied victory.

The commonwealth simply did not have the resources and manpower to do the job,

That leaves us with three choices:
A German victory against Russia
A stalemate between Germany and Russia
A Russian victory.

What would you like for me to say here? That Germany, with the help of a million allies and virtually all possible advantages, failed to achieve victory over the Soviet Union which was fighting practically by herself until late 43'?



Hey whats wrong with that?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I wasn't aware you had a sense of humour, thanks for clarifying

It isn't assumed that anyone here is always right, exception made for Der Panzer Penguin. People here are judged per their own merits. If that causes you trouble then I'm sorry.

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Von,

It was the Soviet Union which fought against Finland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Spain and the Baltic states, not to mention their own traitors from Vlasov's army and not the allies, so the Soviet Union did in fact face the entire might of the Axis powers all by herself (on the ground minus Italy) until mid 1943. Oh and please dont use the garrison's in other countries as reinforcements excuse, that argument has been proven wrong by countless members and holds no water.

The second and third front are irrelevant as the faite of the 3rd reich along with the rest of her allies had been sealed after Kursk.

By 1943 Germany's allies alone lost over 700,000 men all facing the Red Army and had no more to give.

P.S.

If Great Britain did in fact capitulate as you claim in your scenerio, then Germany would actually need even more men just to garrison the island.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Considering that Britain had yet to take some 30 years to find oil in the North Sea, yes, Britain had to import all of her oil, mainly from her British Petroleum wells in Irak, Saudi Arabia, etc. This goes for some other continental countries as well.

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So are we now basing the Soviet Union's survivability on GB's ability to fend of Germany?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

AHHHHHHHH...Logistics. The bane of all "What Ifers?".

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

I don't think he has any idea mate.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Round and round and round and round ...

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If I'm not mistaken, he Brits got a lot of crude oil from the Caribbean and from Nigeria.

Certainly no scope for the 'Germany first' grand Strategy that affected so many things.

Whatever happened over here, surely there'd have been a faster resolution of the pacific fighting with all those extra goodies staying home.
Not really my area though, so...?

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It's only the Internet.

The Germans would have stripped western Europe of troops to hold Poland Hungary and Rumania making the invasion of France possible but only when the Germans had burned out their reserves against the Russians . The Germans may have negotiated a seperate peace involving withdrawal into Germany itself to reduce its need to garrsion France and the low countries. Its also possible that given the choice of communism the Germans would obtain a great number of anti communist volenteers and without the huge losses post DDay the Germans could have put up a much stronger resistance in the east.

The Germans had lost 600,000 troops in the Normandy and breakout battles given these as reserves in the east and the west of germany not being occupied and supplying men and weapons. The Soviets at the end of their manpower reserves and having problems supplying a huge army across the devastated rail and road network in Poland destroyed by the retreating germans woulkd have had huge problems. The Russians lost a million men in the final days of the taking berlin imagine if the divisions lost in France were available if the USA hadnt supplied trucks this would have made the supply situation critical.

Given their greater reserves the Rumanians might not have defected and given fuel reserves from Romania the german war machine would have been much more effective.

The destruction of Dresden was designedto prevent the transfer of troops from the west by burning the center out of the last city with a rail junction to the east. With DDay delayed or cancelled a longer bloodier war of attrition would have occured. With millions more troops and an intact industrial base the blood bath of the final months would have been worse.

If the soviets won they would have tried to seize Germany Italy and the Low countries possibly with France its unlikely that the British and common wealth would have sta down and would probably have invaded via southern france or Normandy in early 1945 in an attept to stop the russians or would have been invited in by the Germans as a prefered conquerer to the soviets in the same way as the germans invited in the allies to Norway and the Channell islands.

Just wondering, who would have the Germans negotiated a separate peace with?

It was fascism and Germany NOT Communism and the Soviet Union which was responsible for the worlds bloodiest conflict. It was Germany which invaded a dozen nations and destroyed so much not the Soviet Union nor Communism. Therefore such a notion is not possible.


I am assuming that you mean the battle for France?

And just out of curiousity, can you share your knowledge of the German troops stationed in France? Their combat experience? Morale? amount of fuel? Health? logistics?

Perhaps even their age?

At the end of their manpower? Having huge problems in Poland? Loosing a million men in Berlin?

Sorry mate no pun intended but....

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Take it easy on him would you? At least he was right about one thing, the Russians did lose about one million individuals in Berlin, that is when you count the babies who were aborted soon after the Battle of Berlin. I am sure most of them had Russian blood in them.

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A combination of unnatural dedication and absolute desolation can reshape destiny

And this has to do with the subject HOW?

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For the first time I have s