Just thought of this after posting on another thread about favorite weapons of WW2. If you could create your own division in WW2 using any weapons and equipment at the time from any nation allied or axis. How would you equip it? Example type of tanks, fire arms such as rifles ect...

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Semper Fi

I think this may belong more in the "What If?" forum and IIRC there may have been a similar thread about this there .

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

What critiques can you make about extant Divisional T.O.E.s to find them unsatisfying so you need to invent other, unproven ones?

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Hmm. OK.

Tank: Challenger 2/M1A2 Abrams/Leapard 2
Rifle:G36
MG:FN Minini
etc etc

Well it is possible if you had a time machine!

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http://jagdpanther.myminicity.com/
OR
http://jagdpanther.myminicity.com/ind
OR
http://jagdpanther.myminicity.com/tra

Divisional Status:Airbourne
Nationality: German
Heavy Vehicles: JagdPanther, Halftrack
Primary firearms: MP-18,MP-40, Scoped_G43,FG42
MG-MachienGewhler42(Of Course)
Secondarys: Broom-handle Mauser

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"The perfect Aryan is as tall as Goebbels, as fit as Goering, as blond as Hitler, as handsome as Himmler and has a name such as Rosenberg."
"

An airborne jagdpanther?
That's some parachute .

Cheers,
Adam.

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It's only the Internet.

I personally would have a battalion of heavy tanks with tigers, two battalions of panthers. Panzer infantry with SG-44s and with B.A.R.'s for extra fire power. M-81 mortars. 155 Long Tom Artillery.

I agree this should be more under what ifs. But too late for that. LOL

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Semper Fi

Sounds like another Fallschirm-Panzer-Division.1 Hermann Göring LOL.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Does anyone remember the Walker Brigade on Saturday Night Live from around 1979? If you do, then I would expand that unit to division size.

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Best Regards,
JW

I don't know about anything else, but my division would involve Soviet Mice.

In the US Army these were called Ordinance Maintenance Battalions. They, like US engineers could do the same work as a German division's worth of troops..... Mostly because the US actually gave them something more than hand tools to work with.....

LOL I had forgotten about that thread I made LOL.

Mouse Research Unit Valenkho OstFront Battles

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

As I put up some time ago:

A single battalion of SeaBees (CB) consists of 32 officers and 1073 men and were provided with the following equipment:

264 16 sq ft tents
21 17 x 20 ft tents
26 16 x 50 ft tents
69 20 x 48 ft quonset huts
3 40 x 100 ft quonset huts
8 water purification units (10,000 gpd)
Canvas tanks for water storage
2 x 500 gpm fire fighting pumps + hand held extinguishers
8 x 15 Kw generators
1 x 50 ckt telephone switchboard + telephones
1 x public address system
1 FM radio set with 60 mi range (as required)
1 x 3/4 ton ambulance
18 jeeps
4 3/4 ton weapons carriers
1 2 1/2 ton truck with 750 gal water tank
4 1 1/2 ton trucks
4 2 1/2 ton trucks
32 2 1/2 ton dump trucks
1 2 1/2 ton truck oilfield body (for moving heavy equipment and parts)
1 4 ton truck.
20 trailers
1 fifth wheel 2 1/2 ton truck tractor combo
2 2.5 yd 6 ton crawler cranes
3 .75 yd 13 ton crawler cranes
1 1.5 yd 30 ton crawler crane
All have clamshell and dragline buckets and the 13 ton units have backhoe attachments
8 class 1 tractors (Caterpillar)
4 class 2 tractors (Caterpillar)
4 class 3 tractors (Caterpillar)
2 class 4 tractors (Caterpillar)
All have either a bulldozer or angledozer attachment
4 8 - 10 cu yd earth mover trailers (for use with the tractors)
4 12 -15 cy yd earth mover trailers
8 pneumatic rock hammers
1 8 ton road roller
1 12 ton road roller
1 3 tooth trenching machine
3 road graders w/ 12 ft blade
2 5 ton cargo cranes
1 7 cu ft cement mixer
1 14 cu ft cement mixer
4 portable 3000 gpm pumps
Supplies for immediate use included:
1000 bags of cement
328,000 BF of lumber
2800 feet of steel shapes
10,850 pounds of rebar
14,000 fasteners
65,400 feet of wire rope
120 oxygen cylinders
2550 lbs of welding rod.

A single Seebee battalion was better equipped than an entire German field army's worth of engineers!

Well minus the American weapons and the non self-propelled artillery you have yourself a panzer division. Why on earth you would pick the 155 and the bar to compliment your armor I think deserves some explaining. The BAR was okay, (I love John Moses Browning) but a small belt fed machine gun would be better for what you are after. Think the 30 cal. You also failed to add a recon battalion.

I would ask again why was wrong with any of the fielded divisions?

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Don't have to create my own. I would go with ones that actually helped to win the war. The 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions (Heavy).

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Ok, I'll bite. As silly as this exercise is, here's my division:

I'll build an armored division.

There will be in addition to the divisional headquarters two brigade headquarters (aka Combat Commands etc.). The divisional headquarters has attached a company of 17 M29 heavy tanks with the 105mm T5E2 gun.

It will have four tank battalions. Each will have:

A headquarters and headquarters company which includes a AM&S section, a comm section, a mortar section with 3 81mm mortars in SPW 38d carriers, an assault gun section with three M4A3 105mm Shermans, and a headquarters platoon of 2 M26 with dozer blade and 3 M26.

There are four line companies in each battalion. Three have 17 M26A1 each and the fourth has 17 M24 light tanks. The usual support units are included for each company.

Next, it has five (5) armored infantry battalions.

Each battalion has a headquarters and headquarters company. The HQ Co includes an AM&S section, comm section, and engineer platoon.

The battalion has four line companies. Three armored infantry and one support.
The three armored infantry companies are orgainzed as a HQ and three armored infantry platoons.
The HQ consists of 2 SPW 38d and an AM&S section.
The line companies have five squads each and a headquarters.
The HQ is an SPW 38d with 6 men and a .50 machinegun
Three are line squads. Each is mounted in a SPW 38d and has 2 x MG 42 rechambered for 30.06 ammunition and restricted to 750 rpm. The rest of the squad has M1 Garands and 2 grenade launcher attachments are available. The vehicle has a Panzerschrek in it too. Each squad has 12 men.
Squad four is the HMG section in a SPW 38d. It has 12 men and is armed with M1 Carbines, 1 x .50 browning and, 2x .30 water cooled browning MGs.
The fifth squad is the mortar section and has one SPW 38d and 8 men with 2 60mm mortars.

The support company has a mortar platoon with 2 SPW 38d each mounting an 81mm mortar and carrying 8 men and a recoilless rifle platoon of 2 SPW 38d each mounting a 75mm recoilless rifle (US) and 6 men.

The battalion support company has a HMG platoon of 4 SPW 38d each with 1 .50 Browning and 2x .30 Browning water cooled machineguns and 12 men, and a support gun section of 3 x GW 38M Grille with 15cm infantry guns.

There are three battalions of M7B1 105mm SP guns with 18 vehicles each. In addition, there is one battalion of M41 155mm SP Howitzers (aka the Gorilla) with 18 guns.

There is an anti aircraft battalion with 18 M19 SP twin 40mm AA guns and 18 M55 quad .50 mounted on M44 hulls.

A signals company, two quartermaster companies, and an armored engineer battalion with three companies and a heavy equipment company included.

Lastly, there is a reconnissance battalion.
This has a HQ and HQ Co and 6 line companies.
The HQ Co includes a mortar platoon of 3 81 mm mortars on SPW 38d and a machinegun platoon of 4 SPW 38d with 2 x .30 Browning water cooled MG each.

The line companies consist of:
1. Assault gun company with 12 x Sdkfz 234/3
2. Light tank company with 17 M18 Hellcat.
3 through 6 are Recon companies.

These consist of a headquarters and three troops.
Each troop has a HQ of one Sdkfz 234 radio car (sort of an M20 conversion of a Sdkfz 234/1), a heavy section of three Sdkfz 234/1, two light sections of 3 x jeeps with MG 42 (rechambered as above) and 9 men, and a support section in 3 x 3/4ton weapons carriers with 2 x 60mm mortars and 2 x .30 Browing water cooled MG.

The division can form up to three commands from the above units as necessary.

The SPW 38d is this thing for those curious:

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Katzchen.htm

To expand and update I guess.... Mr. Gardner made me feel like an idiot.

Also could Mr. Gardner(or somebody else) rate my division on how he thinks it would perform in combat?


Note: A unique unit which is dropped behind enemy lines to create a Field HQ for Infantry and Armour Regiments to rendevous at after Break Outs.
So basicly a Capture-Build-Hold unit.




Divisional/Battalion Status:Airbourne
Nationality: German
Vehicles: Light Motorcycle, Folding Bicycle

Abilities and Purpose: To engage known Enemy armored to the fullest extent of their abilities. Also: Night Time Raids.

Secondaries: To build a modile command post that other Non-Airborne and fellow Airbourne units can regroup and use as a Base of Operations.

Companies:

Alpha: Forward Observers; totaling about 75 men, makes usage of long range observation scopes to mark enemy positions for Charlie Company

Beta: Sub-Machine Gun/Rifle Company Patrols region out of the Division's area of operations to ensure un-interupted plans.

Charlie:Close recon and Sniper: The follow up of Alpha, makes best work out of killing known Enemies and Enemy Positions

Delta: Rifle Company: Group one of the front line soldiers who are first into battle

Epsilon:Same as Delta

Gamma:Same as Delta

Theta: Support Company, dropped with Ammo containers and 30 un-assembled MG42's (parts divided up into various men)

Iota: Construction Company, a follow-up drop. All men are peace-time Lumberjacks and Farmers. Dropped with Woodcutting double saws and sandbags and building tools.
-Makes a HQ for other local units to use as a Go-To point( Sandbags Mounted MGs Mounted A.T. rifles
-Makes Log bunkers to be used by Lamda Company

Lamda: Defense Company works with Beta and Iota to Build Hardpoints(Log Bunkers) on far out area which Patrol Groups of Beta can use as their Barracks.
-Defending thier Log Bunkers are their primary use.

Sigma: Light AA, Uses low flying Cargo Planes on a lator drop to Lay and use Light AA Guns in the vicinity of Iota and Lamda AA Guns are dropped in pieces in boxes and are to be assembles with tools and possible support from Iota.

Omega and Zeta: Rifle, A Reserve For Delta, Epsilon, Gamma Rifle companies.

There! Be Kind.

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"The perfect Aryan is as tall as Goebbels, as fit as Goering, as blond as Hitler, as handsome as Himmler and has a name such as Rosenberg."
"

Your first attempt, I don't know how to respond. It is hardly any sort of organzed unit. You simply list a handful of the types of equipment it will use.

Your second unit has some serious problems and limitations:

Biggest is that you have 12 company sized units working under, assumedly, a single headquarters. That spreads the command structure very thin.
Next, the construction units are largely worthless unless they have materials at hand when they land. This is going to be unlikely in many, if not most, cases. Paratroops rarely drop into woods or wooded areas. Areas without suitable trees / materials will also present problems.
Your Alpha company is largely worthless as there are too many assigned as scouts to too little resources backing them. Snipers are annoying but largely worthless on a battlefield in the larger scale of things. If it were me and I were taking fire from one or several snipers I'd simply try harder to localize their position and then plaster it with artillery. Snipers also do little to tanks.


As an alternative I'd suggest an "Airhead Regiment." This unit would follow the landing of a regular parachute regiment or division. Their purpose would be to build an airhead into which reinforcements could be flown.

It would consist first of a glider landing battalion of airfield engineers. Their equipment would include 3 small bulldozers, 3 towable road graders with jeeps to tow them, 3 tall grass lawn mowers (towed) with jeeps, three disassembled 2 1/2 ton dump trucks. They would have a range of hand and power tools to assist in clearing, surveying, and laying out a grass landing strip suitable for a C47 sized cargo plane to land on within 72 hours of arriving.
The second battalion would be a parachute engineer unit that had the hand and power tools to start construction of the above site and also to clear and render it safe for the gliders to land. Their equipment would include marker lights, homing beacons, and other navigational and landing aids for this purpose.
The third battalion would also be glider borne and consist of a supply and maintenance unit capable of recovering the gliders, setting up a suitable camp area with tents, and providing basic maintenance to the other units along with being the first echelon repair unit for aircraft that land on the operational field.

Once the grass field is up and running, the transports would fly in supplies and building materials to improve the site. Landing mats, rubber fuel and water bladders, pumps, water purification units, and more construction equipment.
Within a week the site would be sufficently prepared that daily reinforcements could be flown in and the air head expanded. Now, with reinforcements, artillery, vehicles, and a means to supply them this air head would be either a thorn in the enemy's rear or a temporary defensive site that could be advanced on by ground troops.
It would have been incredibly useful in the Pacific in particular.