"About four weeks before the attack on Russia, special task forces of the SIPO and SD, called Einsatzgruppen or Special Task Groups, were formed on order of Himmler for the purpose of following the German armies into Russia, combatting partisans and members of resistance groups and exterminating the Jews and Communist leaders. In the beginning four Einsatz Groups were formed. Einsatz Group A, operating in the Baltic States, was placed under the command of Stahlecker, former Inspector of the SIPO and SD. Einsatz Group B, operating toward Moscow, was placed under the command of Nebe, the Chief of Amt V (KRIPO) of the RSHA. Einsatz Group C, operating toward Kiev, was placed under the command of Rasch and later of Thomas, former Chief of the SIPO and SD in Paris. Einsatz Group D, operating in the south of Russia, was placed under the command of Ohlendorf, the Chief of Amt III (SD) of the RSHA.
The Einsatz Groups were officered by personnel of the GESTAPO, the SD and the KRIPO. The men were drawn from the Order Police and the Waffen SS. The groups had complements of 400 to 500 men, and had their own vehicles and equipment. By agreement with the OKW and OKH, the Einsatzkommandos were attached to certain Army corps or divisions. The Army assigned the area in which the Einsatzkommandos were to operate, but all operational directives and orders for the carrying out of executions were given through the RSHA in Berlin. Regular courier service and radio communications existed between the Einsatz Groups and the RSHA. The affidavit of Ohlendorf, Chief of the SD, who led Einsatz Group D, reads in part as follows:

"When the German Army invaded Russia, I was leader of Einsatzgruppe D in the southern sector, and in the course of the year during which I was leader of the Einsatzgruppe D, it liquidated approximately 90,000 men, women and children. The majority of those liquidated were Jews, but there were also among them some Communist functionaries.

"In the execution of this extermination program the Einsatzgruppen were subdivided into Einsatzkommandos, and the Einsatzkommandos into still smaller units, the socalled Sonderkommando and Teilkommandos. Usually the smaller units were led by a member of the SD, the GESTAPO or the KRIPO. The unit selected for this task would enter a village or city and order the prominent Jewish citizens to call together all Jews for the purpose of resettlement. They were asked to hand over their personal belongings to the leaders of the unit, and shortly before the execution, to surrender their outer clothing. The men, women and children were led to a place of execution which usually was located beside a deepened anti-tank ditch. Then they were shot, kneeling or standing, and the corpses were thrown into the ditch. I never permitted the l shooting by individuals in Group D, but ordered that several of the men should shoot at the same time in order to avoid direct personal responsibility. The leaders of the unit, or especially designated persons, however, had to fire the last shot against those victims who were not dead immediately. I learned from conversations with other group leaders that some of them asked the victims to lie down flat on the ground to be shot through the neck. I did not approve of these methods." (2620-PS)

Gestapo and SD Nuremberg Charges, Part 3

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

If you are going to lecture others get your facts correct.

Not all Waffen-SS were volunteers as you like to think. Many were forced into it and virtually drafted.

Your comments suggest as much naivety as the others by suggesting the Wehrmacht were 'good' as they were conscripted. Many volunteered to serve in the Heer. At the start of the war all Fallschirmjager were volunteers. The majority of Gebirgsjager were volunteers in the early war period.

Also the Wehrmacht as much wrapped up in war crimes and Nazi racial policy as was the Waffen-SS.

Also try and use the term Waffen-SS when referring to combat troops. It helps to show the difference between the military and political wings of the formation

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Yes, Kommando, but he was shown the door a few days ago.

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why was he showned the door?



Cheers...

I can't defend myself, in the heat off the moment I made a partially false claim, I apologize. I don't necessarily think the Wermacht where ''good'' just they had a bit of a cleaner war record.

I also thought of the Civil War when I read the first post. I'm from New Jersey, but when I was about 13 I went to Gettysburg with the Boy Scouts and became something of a Southern sympathizer. I liked how they were always outnumbered, how they had interesting commanders, even the color of their uniforms and design of their bullets. I read a bunch of books about things like the Orphan Brigade how to Be Your Own General and basically just thought they were neat. In time I outgrew it.

Anyway I'm as much a Nazi-hater as anyone, but I wouldn't freak out just because some kid admires how the SS had cool uniforms or fought against long odds.

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Sole founder of Encyc.org, now covering World War II.

Because that was the Moderators decided, after conferring with .

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Wehrmacht is ALL the German armed Forces...

The Heer, luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine all bear guilt for war crimes.

Certainly the Heer was heavily involved in the Holocaust as much as any frontline Waffen-SS unit and they happily complied with orders concerning the execution of Soviet Commissars.

i get really tired of people lumping all the blame onto the Waffen-SS and carrying on with this post-war/Cold war tripe that the rest of the German troops behaved well. They didnt. They too have blood on their hands but for political reasons in the NATO enviroment it was best to ignore it and leave the blame with the Waffen-SS.

I also get fed up with the whole 'SS' reference. The Waffen-SS, was a different beast to the SS political wing, those in black who organised the butchery. While there was some crossover of personnel, it was not as widespread as believed. Simiarily the SD was again a different kettle of fish.

Blaming a primarily military organisation such as the Waffen-SS for all the crimes is just plain naive. They certainly committed their share of horrific acts but they were not the only ones.

What about the policemen who joined the Einsatzgruppen? what about the train drivers who rode the trains to the death camps? what about the factory owners who worked people to death?

The Third Reich is the evil regime. To concentrate blame on one part is to shy away from how truly organised and horrific the regime was. It was a regime organised to perpetrate genocide on a massive scale and all contributed to that regardless of their branch or arm of service.

i imagine most who say they want to serve in the Waffen-Ss know little of what war is really like or what those units endured and did. They are attracted by the glamour and mystique of them. I see no difference between wanting to serve in the Heer in a fantasy and to serving in the Waffen-SS as all of this is pointless fantasy day-dreaming.

Im sure if most of us had been borm in Germany at that time many of us would have served in the Waffen-SS. I have no doubt I would probally have volunteered for it had I been born in Germany in 1920. The appeal lay in the sense of elite status and the bonds of comradeship that the Waffen-SS did have and which in certain cases directly led to their crimes. Thankfully I wasnt born in that time. I have got to see the war with hindsight and history, but I spend alot of time trying to understand those dark days and what it was like. I was lucky to have many around me who served, including my Grandfathers, one of whom was of German descent, but who served in the BEF. he instilled in me the concept that a soldier is a soldier regardless of nation or ideals. He does his job as he is told to do and to the best of his ability for those friends around them. He held no grudge against the Germans, even thosugh his injuries left him in a wheelchair and he would often talk of how he almost admire the Waffen-SS and the Germans for their fighting ability and their bravery. He never forgot the horrors he saw but he also knew that there were two sides to every story and he too had committed what would now be called war crimes.

Pardon my rant and ramble...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Well, I suppose it's the same reason why people still put confederate flag stickers on the pick-up's here in the U.S. People read something about it or see a movie, and they often remember only the glamorous aspect of it. It's sort of like my first really serious girl friend I had in High School before she went back to Moscow. I just seem top remember all of the great things about her.

Just a thought,

Bill

Sure. Though some think that slavery was the main issue it wasn't. The Confederacy was not responsible for the same types of crimes that the Nazi regime including the SS and Waffen SS were shown to have commited. Murder,Rape,Attempted Genocide, looting of whole countries, the deaths of INNOCENT millions,destruction on a grand scale. Two very different wars ,goverments,situations. And I for one have not condemned ALL members of the Waffen SS. Nor am I saying that the Confederacy was lily white. But do not I comdemn all members of the military that served under the Confederacy either. But when compared to the Nazis and the SS and Waffen SS under them the Johnny Rebs are a church group. IMO flying the Confederate Battle Flag is very different from wanting to serve in an orginization that was declared as criminal and thought as such by a large part of the world.


Confederate Battle Flag and Confederate National Flag

Do you feel that the NEW Georgia state flag should be banned too?


New Georgia flag


Georgia flag, 2001–2003

Or perhaps the Ste flag of Florida?



Or Alabama?

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Rather less than most realize. Not sure that it has much correlation to your question though
Nothing prevents you from making inane comments as you just demonstrated.

The good Baron is correct, there is a book,
"The Shadow of His Wings: The True Story of Fr. Gereon Goldmann, OFM"

In this engaging personal account, Franciscan Father Gernon Goldmann narrates the true story of his experiences as a devoted Catholic in the German army during World War II. As a young man his studies for the priesthood were interrupted when he was drafted to join the army -- and found himself in the SS. In his thrilling retelling, Fr. Goldmann brilliantly captures the dichotomy of his zeal for Germany, which wanes as he becomes more familiar with the Nazis, and his burning passion for God. Secretly ordained after clandestine studies, he ministers to German Catholic soldiers and civilians amidst the horrors of war and at great personal risk. Readers will find in Fr. Goldmann’s account a dramatic story of courageous faith in a time a severe trial and a powerful testament to God’s loving providence.

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Those who kept silent yesterday will remain silent tomorrow"
~Elie Wiesel~

No offense , but have you actually ever dealt with the Klan? they arent like The nefarious men of "Mississippi burning", they are now,,,,,pretty much a big group of pussies who hide behind an escort of police officers to march through a town that doesnt even give them 2 minutes of air time on the Tv stations. They are impotent, noone gives them any kind of recognition anymore. Even the skinheads make fun of them.


A nation with a conscience? Ok, what about the Southern Cross Hammer Skinheads,the White Australian Resistance WAR), located in Melbourne, or the National Action Skins?

Those are the ones I found in the first thing that popped up about nazis in Australia. I didnt feel like going thru all the links, but I think you get the point. You guys have just as many racists as we do. Hell, what about Mel Gibsons dad? Hes a proud white seperatist!!

Hold the phone there Quickdraw, we might have imported them but YOUR government exported them. You go on about how we imported slaves; do you know how they got here? Dutch ships, English ships, and French ships. They got here via the Dutch West India Company and the English Royal African Company, who actually monopolized the African coast line for the purpose of slave trading. Hell, the Africans sold each other into slavery in bids to gain land and wealth! In fact, to this very day, they still do!! How do you think they get blood diamonds? or Armies of children?

So dont blame us for the slave trade, there were plenty of co-conspirators to go around, and actually, the first three countries to BAN slave trading were Denmark in 1803, Great Britain in 1807, and the United States in 1807, so it seems that both of our governments -at the time- gave it up in tandem.

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Those who kept silent yesterday will remain silent tomorrow"
~Elie Wiesel~

What was the topic of this thread?

If y'all want to talk about slavery, make another thread.

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Best Regards,
JW

First off all let me say that there is a lot of questionable forwarding’s voiced in this thread. My family is quite rich in service to the Wehrmacht and SS and all of them come to the same conclusion or statements.

What I really do not like is this constant upbringing of SS and Waffen SS being a different story.

The initial members of both branches were painfully selected not only according to their blue eyes and height but specifically to their political view. – Nazi view.

There were a lot of Germans who wanted to serve in the SS but didn’t pass certain criteria’s and please don’t forget, how small the SS was in its initial stages before 1939. So many who were turned down by the SS, still became SS members but served in the Wehrmacht, Navy or Luftwaffe.
One of my uncles was such a person – who served in the Luftwaffe but still displayed his SS membership on his uniform sleeve whilst others didn’t.

Yes, one could actually be a SS member without serving in the SS.

Let me please forward one question; who would willingly join an SS formation/section after having listened to Hitler’s insane and screeching radio broadcasts or live performance without sharing his view?

So there were enough Nazi’s in the other armed formations who contributed their share when it came to atrocities, but they and other criminal or sadistic elements were never a majority in those formations.

Herr Baron: To try and place the Wehrmacht on the same level with the Waffen SS, is to me absurd.

The fact that especially from 1943 onwards, the majority of the WaffenSS members were drafted or hadn’t even been German citizens before (like another “Wolga-German” SS uncle of mine) was taken as a welcomed excuse by the initial members to cover themselves from being prosecuted as Nazi’s and war criminals after the war. – generalizing the Waffen SS as being different from the SS.

Yes perfect whitewasher’s like Hausser didn’t approve with the Wehrmacht concept and saw their chance by joining the Waffen SS. Hausser however could never forward that as an SS member he wouldn’t know who he had given his oath to and about the actual task of the Waffen SS in regards to elimination of unworthy live. The Waffen SS was not strictly involved with the concentration camps, but they knew about their elimination task in regards to the Jews, Slavic race and the Bolsheviks on the battle ground. They were given regular political lessons besides combat training.

There were rare exceptions even in the WaffenSS, were members became disillusioned upon realizing their primary task – but too late. Others didn’t want to get hanged and even showed willingness to collaborate against Hitler (Most prominent Sepp Dietrich).

Unfortunately the upcoming cold war and remilitarization of Germany assisted all these Nazi’s to avoid prosecution and to spread the continuous bullsh.. about not having been a Nazi or follower of the Nazi doctrines, we were all forced, etc.blah, blah.

Regards
Kruska

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The world is grey - not black and white

This thread died over a month ago until someone had to bring it up again. Let it die. Or even better close it.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

i know how you feel, with that darnest thread of mine i wish it would die

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