franco allowing german troops to march through spain

tommy tater · #1 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 01:25 PM

what if franco allowed german forces to march through spain to get to gibralter which was in british control in what was called isabella-felix?

if this happened wouldn't the british postition & the whole of operation torch in western africa would have been at risk from counter-attack at gibralter.

lwd · #2 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 04:24 PM

Depends on when. Not sure the Germans need the additional logistic strain.

Za Rodinu · #3 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 04:57 PM

If I may add some context, if that operation went ahead then it mean that Franco's conditions set at the Hendaye Conference (Hitler/Franco, October '40) had been fulfilled, as well as other historical considerarions that would have to be met as well.

Quote:

On October 23, 1940, Spain’s leader had his one and only personal meeting with Hitler, at Hendaye on the border with France. The Caudillo arrived late not, as his admirers claimed, in a clever piece of one-upmanship, but because of the inadequacies of the Spanish rail system.

Hitler imagined that the encounter was a formality, at which Franco would merely announce the date of his entry into the war. Instead, to the Germans’ dismay, the Spanish leader produced a long shopping list of conditions for participation, new colonies in Africa prominent among them.

Hitler wished to send German troops into Spain to seize Gibraltar. Franco perceived such a proposal as an insult to his own army. He was anyway uneasy about inviting panzer grenadiers to camp on his doorstep. He told the disbelieving Germans that his own troops could take care of Gibraltar, once they had been reequipped with the German weapons and planes he needed. Hitler was exasperated not only by Franco’s presumption, but by the garrulous Spaniard’s long monologues and personal reminiscences, which the Führer perceived as his own prerogative.

By a bizarre twist, the most significant deal-breaker was Spain’s claim to a chunk of Vichy France’s African empire. The Hendaye meeting came weeks after Vichy French forces at Dakar had repulsed a British and Gaullist attempt to seize the port. Hitler cherished hopes that this action presaged active Vichy military support for his armies. Dakar, which was at the time perceived in London as an unalloyed fiasco, thus yielded an uncomprehended blessing: Hitler refused to offer Franco French colonial possessions in return for joining the war.

Franco and Hitler: Spain, Germany and World War II by Stanley G Payne review | Non-fiction book reviews - Times Online

Also wais:February 2005

Quote:

Those cons were that Spain's lack of fuel would limit Spain's involvement to a couple of months without German help, English counter-seizures of the Canaries, Tangier and the Balearics, an extension of the Gibraltar zone, an English landing in Portugal, an English link with French forces in Morocco and the additional burden of a Spanish drain on German food and fuel supplies, as well as the sheer physical problems of rapidly moving troops and supplies around Spain due to that country's tortuous roads and different gauge railroad.. (p.371)
...
On the economy, Spanish recovery did not really start until 1960 (25 years after the uprising) and derived from policies of liberal economics and integration into the international capitalist system, both of which has been excoriated by Franco since 1939, preferring the autarkic principles of self-sufficiency that failed abysmally.

In the meantime Germany would be forced to sustain their new ally economically.

Would Hitler be prepared to put up with all this?

JCFalkenbergIII · #4 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 05:48 PM

Tater. You might like to read the rules about posting a "What if?". Quite a few threads get closed because they dont meet the criteria.

What If? Forum Rules

JCFalkenbergIII · #5 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 07:26 PM

Heres a couple of similar threads. I suggest you check these out too. They point out the possible actions and reactions

Spain and portugal joined the axis?

What if Spain Joined the Axis

T. A. Gardner · #6 (**permalink**) August 30th, 2008, 08:17 PM

Spain ends up at war with the Allies as doing this would have been seen as an act of war. There are already threads detailing what a disasterous course that would be for the Axis and Spain both.

A-58 · #7 (**permalink**) November 25th, 2008, 09:07 AM

If Franco just allowed the Germans to march through and attack Gibralter without direct Spanish military assistance, how would that be different from Sweden allowing German troops to travel through on their way to the front in Finland? That didn't result in Sweden being attacked by the Soviet Union. Sweden did get labeled a "cowardly little country" by Churchill I believe for allowing this (not sure of the exact quote, pardon me please), but that was about it I believe. I don't think that England was in much of a position to make a big stink with Spain over allowing German free passage. They were severely over stretched as it was at that time. Retribution would have to wait.

Za Rodinu · #8 (**permalink**) November 25th, 2008, 09:28 AM

England was very much in a position to make a big stink with Spain. At that time the UK was one of the main actors in the Iberian countries economic life, as one of the main import and export sources and control of a number of large firms. If there were to be a sudden retreat of the British interest then the economy would be in a worse position than it was already after a civil war that had bled the country dry. Would the Reich be able to fill the blank left and supply all the cut-off foodstuffs and oil Spain needed? The Reich had serious shortcomings in that area already, let alone having to feed an ally in dire need!

Mussolini · #9 (**permalink**) November 25th, 2008, 12:42 PM

Please read the What If... rules before posting in the What If...section. These thread does not meet the requirements. Closed.