I've just come back from a book 'warehouse' with a copy of Antony Beevor's 'Berlin : The Downfall 1945'.

Anyone else got it ? I saw the recent TV documentary with Beevor - interesting stuff.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I had to review it. The book is pretty badly misnamed, presumably for marketing purposes. You don't really get to Berlin until halfway through.

What it is good at is being a case study for collapsing morale and discipline and atrocities commited by the Russians - not just on Germans but on Poles, Slave Workers and even "liberated" Russian women.

Not his best book by any stretch, but worth a read.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Thanks, Jumbo.
Actually, your first comment is a 'plus-point' for me as several books have been published about 'Berlin' over the years - the fighting to the East seems to have been completely overlooked by Western writers and Carell's projected 'third volume' never happened.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Well it certainly gives a flavour of the situation in eastern Germany in 1945 and conveys the tragedy and tension very well. I think you will enjoy it if you can ignore his little errors (like describing Tedder as Ike's Chief of Staff etc..)

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

I liked his Stalingrad book very much and are anticipating reading his Fall of Berlin book--which I have.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I've read a couple of chapters already and see your point, Jumbo.

One or two little errors, awkward sentence construction ( and even a little typo on page 1 ) give the impression of hurried writing and production. I'm guessing here but assume that Beevor and/or his publishers were anxious to capitalize on the success of 'Stalingrad'. ( That book has been a publishing phenomenon in Britain - friends of mine who evince no interest in military history at all have a copy of 'Stalingrad' on their bookshelves ).

But yes - a good read which moves along well and a very handsomely-produced book which I'll finish soon.

And...one has to admit to a ghastly fascination ( rather like looking at the scene of a car crash ) with the final weeks of the Third Reich.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin

Looking at a Car Crash is a good analogy. You want to scream at some of them and say "don't do it you fool!".

I really like Beevors talent at digging up personal accounts. A good reminder of all the suffering which, if Dubya has his way, will once again be inflicted on mankind. Everyone talking war with gay abandon should read this book and others like it before making such shattering decisions.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Again, will the people making these sort of decisions be up at the sharp end ?
Will they ****.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin :

you've probably read a bit more now, but my understanding is that the book covers more from the civilian standpoint than that of the Soviet/German veterans, and because of this the author has been chastized !

E

No, that seems a rather harsh 'take' on the book, Erich.

Beevor acknowledges a roughly equal number of German & Soviet veterans and so far ( a third of the way through ) the book concentrates on military operations.

I can see his objective - this is not a book for the professional historian. The author is trying to convey the 'feel' of a campaign the scope and horrors of which we in the West can barely comprehend. The civilian population in East Prussia suffered dreadfully in ways that the population of, say, Normandy or Arnhem thankfully did not.

Also, each individual action that he mentions could, with sufficient research, be worthy of a book in its' own right.

I think, overall, that Beevor is using his 'power' as a best-selling author to bring some of modern warfare's more unpalatable truths to a general readership ( and that can only be positive ) , in addition to informing us of a hitherto largely-overlooked area of WWII.

....and yes, it's a good read !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

*bump* and the missing thread re-emerges !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I read the book a few weeks ago and liked it very much. Beevor mixes personal stories and the historical facts of the battles. It reads smoothly.

Sounds good then--as this is like what he did with his book: "Stalingrad."

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Interesting as I have had at least 6 friends tell me the book was rubbish. Guess they were looking forward to a book to replace Ryan's Last Battle which I think is terrible. My opinion please, do not throw any rocks my way and please leave the soap suds on the floor now !! As I stated in an earlier posting 'what i heard' was that it covered more than just the battle itself and more of the human non-combatant side which has been discussed. Truly the plight of the Ost Preussian peoples needs to be told in a book that is not just in the Deutsche language. If this is the case I am all behind it.....

E

Ya got me there--as I aint read it yet it might be trash. I heard that the publishers force Beevor into finishing it quickly so they could start making money with it--dunno.

If he was rushed--it will not be as good as Stalingrad was--but hopefully that rumor is false. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Erich-- it's correct that the book covers more than only information about the battle. There are also stories about civilians who had to flee or personal memories from the people of Berlin. If you look for a book which covers only battle details this is not your book.

Other info that I liked are the discussions between generals and Himmler/Hitler.

No problems Volkbert ! Just think the guys that I have chatted with one a book that consistantly covered just the battles to the east and throughout the city. A person I think has to be awful careful though if you are going to cover refugees and the like streaming from the east to the west as then the Ost Prussian battles need to be covered to explain why there was such chaos and into the realm of the Berlin escapades starting in February of 45, or at least in the air over the area. One volume is so hard for so much materials that should be covered. I hope the author does well with this book.

E

Got this one as a Christmas Present and have just started reading it so i'll let you know what i think!

Erich i've just read Last Laurels the German Defence of Upper Silesia Jan-May 1945 which was excellent in covering the actions of the Combat units involved and also the sufferings of the civilian population at the hands of the Red Army,albeit in many cases not the combat troops but the REMFS following behind.

GoT some great photos as well particulary of the Skijager and 19 PD.

If anyone wonders why the Germans fought so fiercley in Silesia,East Prussia,Pommerania and finally into Berlin this book gives a good idea why.

Paul

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Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

Let no one forget . Let nothing be forgotten.

Paul :

I have heard some positive things about the silesia book. I actually got F. Kurowski's Kurland book and it covers maybe just a smidgeon of the refugees plight from the east skirting the mess in Kurland Kessel. Ah yes the plight of the eastern Germans. Well with two vet brothers and wives to tell me about the horrors they undertook I've got first hand information. The situation was absolutely terrible during 45.

E

Erich.....just missed you with my first stoning on this group..you moved...

What is it about Ryans book that you dislike?

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Ryan's book back in the 1960's was the said book to have on the Battle for Berlin. I found his adresse through whom I cannot remember and asked him why he did not cover more on the W-SS divisions 11th, 23rd and the 33rd Charlemagne and the special anti tank hunter units stationed there plus there was nothing written about the unreal fighting of the tankers of the SS Schwere Pz. Abt. 503 which blew away quite a few Soviet tanks in the inner city fighting.......there was never a response. I gladly accept his huge roster list of people noted at the back of his book and am hopeful he interviewed everyone.... ? did he ?

E

I hate to think about it but it makes you wonder just did he do that with "A Bridge Too Far?"

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.