The doctrine bit is actually the real problem when it comes to the British army in WW2.

The thinking in the 20ies and 30ies plus dwindeling funding led to the dreaded cruiser/infantry tank concept. And this started to rot. Worse was the experiences from operation Compass seemed to reeinforce the sensebility of Independent Armd. Brigades Swanning about. This was going to cost a lot of Tanks for the rest of the war.
Throw the Regimental system into the ring and then you have an unmanagebal situation.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Had a great day yesterday reading the book & watching tank overhaul on sky
After getting throw the minefield of doctrine chapter , i'am now on design & planning & it been a great read

I would recommend Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II by Stephen E. Ambrose
As it tell the story of how the US armour did at Normandy

I don't like 'Death Traps' as a basis for armour effectiveness discussions as, good read though it is, it does come from a very narrow perspective.

Buckley's observation that German guns of the period (at Normandy ranges) could slice through any armour protection that was technologically possible in 1944 is an interesting one.
Kind of pulls the rug out from any discussion of armour thickness deficiencies on the allied side and refocuses firepower as the more significant technological factor in Normandy. Though even that's far more complex than it first appears.

Turning out to be one of the most sensible books on the campaign I've read. Complexity heaped on complexity but all good stuff, as the situation was, as is everything in war, considerably more complex than first appears.

Cheers,
Adam.

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"Wars cannot be fought with dream stuff" - Sir Percy Hobart.

That last line of Adam's post is so true.....

I'm getting now to the end of the book. Full of fascinating stuff but the author's arguments have actually convinced me that yes, the Germans did have the 'coolest' tanks in Normandy.... The Allied answers arrived several months too late.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

You pays your money and you makes your choice.
You build small numbers of over-engineered tank killers or you choose to stick with a basic all-round tank built in huge numbers. History tells us who made the right decision.
Over half the German tank force in Normandy was the old PzIV and it was no better a tank than the Sherman.

Amen to that, but so many years of conjecture seem to too often have ignored the fact of who actually won.

Buckley never fails to concede that the German vehicles were often theoretically technically superior (or cooler ) but one of the main thrusts of the book seems to be that this is too easily cited as a lazy way of assessing the actual situation and was in fact dealt with rather successfully by the Anglo-Canadian Armies.
It's a conclusion that I think anyone serious about Armour in Normandy has already come to but it's very nice to have the situation laid out so thoroughly in such a well-researched book.

Required reading for the 'Normandyite' I reckon.

Cheers,
Adam.

(And how about that graph showing number of German tanks faced by the Anglo-Canadians as opposed to the US forces... now there's an explosive little nugget for many cliched 'Patton related' discussions that appear on various forums )

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"Wars cannot be fought with dream stuff" - Sir Percy Hobart.

No arguments there......


......but what about the other half......?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

(And how about that graph showing number of German tanks faced by the Anglo-Canadians as opposed to the US forces... now there's an explosive little nugget for many cliched 'Patton related' discussions that appear on various forums )

The American story was printed first, so I guess that it took hold before other nations accounts were presented.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

So do any of you fellows recommend this book?

Definitely.

IMPO Buckley ( and others ) have now redressed the balance by clearly stating their case that 21st Army have been rather unfairly treated by post-war historians who have followed Liddell Hart's rather biased thinking.

Full marks also to Buckley for the chapter 'Morale and Motivation'. After some of the rather dry and theoretical earlier chapters, he quotes some very sobering personal accounts of just what happened inside a 'brewed-up' tank. Something worth keeping in mind for those 'Oh - we could afford to lose 5 Shermans for every Tiger/Panther' arguments......

Not a cheap book, but a 'must-read' for anyone interested in the subject.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

..thanks Martin for the review....

being a sensible sort of chap I have resisted the urge to spend 65 GBP ( about $120) on this work and have reserved a copy at my local library...

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http://members.aol.com/falkeeins
Kaczmarek - a German view of the air war

I reckon combine this with David Fletcher's 'Mechanised Force', 'The Great Tank Scandal', & 'The Universal tank' (all well overdue for a single volume reprint) and that's about all you' need for a serious and sensible review of British Armour technology & doctrine during the war. The 2 authors compliment each other perfectly, one being very sober and serious, the other more relaxed but immensely knowledgeable, each fills in where the other may have skimmed over.

£20 for the paperback seemed a bit steep but after reading it's one of those that's a bargain in retrospect.

Cheers,
Adam.

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"Wars cannot be fought with dream stuff" - Sir Percy Hobart.

Adam used that word again.....

( )

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hello all,

I am awaiting the Buckley book at the momment; sounds like it will have a similar angle to Fortin's.

Can anyone recommend a reasonably balance tome on the US armoured performance in Normandy please?

.. came across an interesting piece put together by Ross here

British armour in Normandy

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http://members.aol.com/falkeeins
Kaczmarek - a German view of the air war