I pleased to present the transcript from our inaugural author chat with Gregory Freeman. We spent a very fast-paced our discussing The Forgotten 500, about the rescue of several hundred Allied airmen in Yogoslavia, and Mr. Freeman's upcoming book, Troubled Water, about the 1972 race riot on the USS Kittyhawk.

In preparing this transcript for publication, I eliminated the pre- and post-chat "banter" among the participating Rogues. I also consolidated posts in the interest of clarity and moved some questions so that they are more squarely juxtaposed with Mr. Freeman's response. Lastly, I eliminated my own editorial comment that were not substantive. Otherwise, the chat is presented in full.
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[dgmitchell] 3:00 pm: Today we welcome Gregory A. Freeman, the author of Sailors to the End: The Deadly Fire on the USS Forrestal and the Heroes Who Fought It and Lay This Body Down: The 1921 Murders of Eleven Plantation Slaves. Today we will be discussing The Forgotten 500: The Untold Story of the Men Who Risked All for the Greatest Rescue Mission of World War II. Mr. Freeman, thank you for joining us!

[lrusso216] 3:01 pm: First of all, let me say how much I enjoyed the book. It reads almost like a novel. How did you become aware of this story? Did you have some personal contact with any of the principals, or did the original idea come through research of various archives?

[dgmitchell] 3:02 pm: Excellent question Lou! All keep in mind that there will be a bit of a delay while Mr. Freeman types his responses. You may want to use the time to compose your own questions.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:02 pm: I first came across the story about 10 years ago, just a brief reference in something online about WW2. Then I started looking into it and found out there was so much more to the story. It all came about organically, that is, I had no ties to the story or the people involved. It simply struck me as a fantastic story and the fact that it hadn't been told yet made it even more compelling. And thanks for saying it reads like a novel. That's exactly my goal.

[texson66] 3:03 pm: when did you finally decide to do the book?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:04 pm: I decided not to do the book right away because that was at the height of the Kosovo conflict and the latest nastiness in that region.

[texson66] 3:04 pm: good point

[Gregory Freeman] 3:05 pm: I knew that if I did it then the book would invevitably be entangled in that current mess and the arguing back and forth over who was the worst party. So I put it off for a few years and then came back to it when things had setttled down.

[mikebatzel] 3:05 pm: While writing your book did you wish you were able to go more in depth about the political situation in Yugoslavia during the war?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:06 pm: Mike: No, I felt like I gave enough framework for the reader to understand the story I was trying to tell. I could write volumes on teh politics invovled, but I was trying to focus on the rescue story and tell the reader what they needed to know to understand it.

[dgmitchell] 3:05 pm: Why do you think the subject had been untouched before that?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:07 pm: dg -- It had gone untold for so many years mostly because the state dept. just didn't want the story out and they did everything they could to downplay it. But frankly I'm still surpreised that some other journalist didn't come upon it before I did. It's just such a great story.

[dgmitchell] 3:08 pm: It is such a great story . . . any chance for a film version?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:08 pm: A very good chance. Two of my books are optioned for movies already and F500 is very close to being optioned. I can't say who yet, but it's a producer who has been involved in some other very big projects.

[dgmitchell] 3:09 pm: Very cool!

[lrusso216] 3:10 pm: I think it makes for a great movie.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:10 pm: Me too. I could envision the scenes on screen as I wrote them. And to be honest, that's no accident. I write in such a way that the reader can see it playing out in his mind, and that's conducive to taking the book to the big screen.

[lrusso216] 3:09 pm: Other than researching the declassified CIA reports, did you receive cooperation from toady's CIA?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:10 pm: No, but I didn't really seek it either. I didn't figure they'd be eager to help, just because they're busy with plenty of more pressing things lately.

[Slipdigit] 3:11 pm: That scene where they were about to jump into the battle would look great, I coud visualize it.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:12 pm: So many scenes are movie-ready. Especially some of the touching ones -- Orsini's mother getting the telegram, them reuniting, Musgrove hiding under the bed....

[PanzerPenguin] 3:11 pm: You've now written two books on World War II. Any plans for more (on WW2) in the future?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:12 pm: Yep, working on another WW2 book now. It's about the Russelsheim massacre. Sort of the opposite story of F500. Airmen went down over a town in Germany that had been bombed hard, and the townspeople lynched them. The interesting part is that war crimes trial that followed, where we put the citizenry on trial.

[PanzerPenguin] 3:13 pm: Do you get to choose the topics, or does some one approach you with suggestions?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:14 pm: I get to choose, but people do make suggestions. And I'm always happy to hear ideas. Finding the right topic is one of the hardest parts of my job, so I'm always interested in ideas.

[dgmitchell] 3:14 pm: That sounds like another great topic but a disturbing film!

[Gregory Freeman] 3:14 pm: Yeah, not quite as uplifting as F500. But it has a happy ending of sorts.

[dgmitchell] 3:15 pm: That is good! Fgrun has a question now, I think.

[Fgrun83] 3:15 pm: After doing so much research on Mihailovich and Tito, and the4 airmen involved would you consider doing a biography on any of the involved?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:16 pm: I could, but a biography isn't really my thing. I prefer writing the dramatic nonfiction narratives like F500 and I think that's really where my skills lie. A biography is more of a hardcore project for an academic type writer, at least in my mind.

[dgmitchell] 3:17 pm: Draza Milhailovich is portrayed as the great victim in F500.. How is he remembered today in his former country?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:17 pm: Well, it depends on who you talk to.

[dgmitchell] 3:17 pm: The divide is still that great?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:18 pm: Among the Serbs, he is revered as a great martyred hero. They have a deep respect for him. But in the Balkans, you only have to walk a few feet to find someone of a different religion, ethnicity, political belief that will disagree. Yes, unfortunately there's still a lot of conflict.

[dgmitchell] 3:19 pm: Pity. He seems entirely heroic. I believe Lou now has a question.

[lrusso216] 3:19 pm: Given the duplicity, not to say stupidity, of the State Department, did you experience any roadblocks in your research?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:19 pm: It goes way, way back. You'll find people who insist that Mihailovich was a Nazi collaborator who got what he deserved. No roadblocks, but that may be because I didn't give them the chance. I got my information elsewhere, without having to go through them. By the way, you see the same attitude at the State Dept. these days.... inviting Iranian diplomats to the July 4 parties at our embassies, while they're shooting people in the streets. Better to play nice with the despots than to the rock the boat.

[PanzerPenguin] 3:20 pm: In the F500, you stated that Draza Milhailovich could be considered the first casualty of the Cold War. It seems like you could make a good case for this statement but do other Historians/Authors agree with that statement?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:23 pm: Well, I haven't heard anyone disagree. But I'm sure you could find someone who would. I meant that statement more as a general allusion to make the point about how and why he was killed, rather than to pinpoint who was first. And still, some might disagree that he was killed for those reasons.

[dgmitchell] 3:23 pm: I suppose that every issue can be answered a lot of different ways depending on who is asked. Otherwise, we would not have war stories.

[macrusk] 3:23 pm: What were your research sources? Personal interview or archival search?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:24 pm: Both, plenty of both. Extensively documented in the book.

[macrusk] 3:24 pm: Thank you

[lrusso216] 3:25 pm: What got me was the attitude of the British. Why do you think the British officials, both in SOE and the government at large, did not become suspicious of the data that Klugmann forwarded when it was contradicted by “on the ground” agents?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:25 pm: Good question.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:26 pm: I think it's because of the way any big organization works. Sometimes the bureaucracy tends to trust the higher ups who may know less than the front line folks, just because they have influence, authority, and the ability to persuade. Klugmann was well connected, influential an dhe knew how to work the system. The guys on the ground simply reported the facts and that was about all they could do.

[dgmitchell] 3:27 pm: Jeff -- I think you have a follow up question on this topic?

[Slipdigit] 3:27 pm: yes. Have the British ever disavowed Klugmann and his work?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:29 pm: Hmmmm, not sure if they have officially disavowed him. But the truth came out and it was played up pretty big in the British press. It may be that the current governement didn't need to officially disavow him because they were no longer affiliated with him and the facts of what he did were pretty apparent.

[Slipdigit] 3:30 pm: Have they accepted culpability in the loss of Yugo to the Communists?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:32 pm: Churchill did acknowledge late in his career that siding with Tito over Mihailovich was a grave mistake. This was during the years of Tito's rein and as the Cold War was heating up, and Churchill stated that the Alllies should never have abandoned Mihailovich. The US did as much by giving M the Legion of Merit.

[dgmitchell] 3:32 pm: But not actually letting anyone know about the Legion of M. until much later . . . .

[Gregory Freeman] 3:33 pm: Correct. Sort of apologizing in a whisper no one can hear.

[lrusso216] 3:30 pm: Even 65 years later, it's mind boggling and frustrating. I can't imagine what it must have felt like to those involved. Given that the OSS’ acceptance of communists in their ranks was primarily based on Donovan’s pragmatic approach, did you find the existence of any moles, similar to Klugmann in the SOE?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:33 pm: Re the existence of moles in the OSS... I didn't actively look for evidence of communist moles in the OSS, but over the years I'm sure it happened. There definitely were communists in the OSS and they would have their own agenda.

[Fgrun83] 3:34 pm: Even though the British aligned themselves with Tito's Pro-Communism faction, Why would the Britsh not be pleased that the OSS was setting up a rescue mission which included the rescuing of British Soldiers, was there that much of a communist influence in the SOE?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:35 pm: Not an easy question to answer.... The answer mostly has to do with the fact the British simply did not trust Mihailovich anymore. What we know about Mihailovich and the downed airmen and what M was doing for them, the British did not necessarily know or believe at the time. They did not think they could trust him, they didn't want to upset Tito by working with him in any way, and they also didn't like the idea of the Americans operating in territory that was previously theirs to control.

[mikebatzel] 3:37 pm: Going back to the begining, what specificly, became the most influential part of your decision to write F500?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:38 pm: As a writer, it was seeing how the story -- the true story, without needing to make up anything or fill in missing parts -- makes such a dramatic narrative. There are interesting stories that sometimes don't make such a great narrative -- no beginning, middle or end, no clear resolution, no emotional hooks, etc. This one had everything.

[PanzerPenguin] 3:40 pm: Was it easy transitioning over from being a journalist to writing novels? And did you decide one day to write a novel, or did some one approach you?

[dgmitchell] 3:40 pm: Not sure I would call a work of historical research a novel, Matt. This is non-fiction . . . ..

[Gregory Freeman] 3:41 pm: Picky point -- they're not novels, but it's easy for non-writers to confuse them. They read like novels, and that's intentional, but they're true, meticulously documented narratives. But to your question... The first one was a real challenge. I had no idea if I could write enough to make it book length. But after that it got easier. The basic skills and goals are the same whether you're writing an article or a book.

[PanzerPenguin] 3:43 pm: Was it easy getting some interested in the first one? I know its usually hard to get something published w/o being approached first

[Gregory Freeman] 3:43 pm: I decided to write my first on my own. No one approaches you about writing a book until you've written (and sold) quite a few. Then they come to you. That's a good thing.

[Slipdigit] 3:44 pm: I'll bet it is

[PanzerPenguin] 3:44 pm: did having a background in journalism make people pay more attention to you?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:44 pm: Selling your first book is very, very hard no matter how good it is. It's a tough business to break into. I guess it did. It gave me some credibility.

[Slipdigit] 3:44 pm: Do you know why was Magda Goebbels traveling in the area?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:45 pm: No, I don't know. I was curious too, but that would have required another six months of research into her travel history.

[Slipdigit] 3:46 pm: very fortuitous for them

[texson66] 3:46 pm: The Vujnovichs seem like wonderful folks. They made the Forgotten 500 possible. Did Mirjana get any ...recognition publicly? Any likelihood of a separate book about them?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:47 pm: George is wonderful. I wish I could have met Mirjana. She has been recognized along with George for her role by some OSS/veterans organizations.

[Fgrun83] 3:47 pm: During the trial of General Draza Mihailovich did you find if any other nation's dignitaries had sent any letters or other correspondence to Tito's government in regards to clearing the name of Mihailovich other then the United States by Secretary of State Acheson?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:48 pm: I'd have to c heck my research for specifics, but I know that some countries did send letters supporting a fair trial for M, not necessarily urging his release.

[lrusso216] 3:49 pm: When can we expect to see your new book? Is it nearly ready?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:49 pm: September 15. Check Amazon.com for Troubled Water or my web page at www.gregoryafreeman.com.

[dgmitchell] 3:50 pm: Can you tell us a bit more about the subject of the next title?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:50 pm: It's about a race riot and attempted mutiny on the carrier Kitty Hawk in 1972. Great story about how some sailors rioted for most of a day, very violent, while the captain and xo tried to stop it. They disagreed sometimes. The XO was the first ever black XO of a carrier and he had to do something very dramatic to bring the violence to an end.

[dgmitchell] 3:52 pm: And that was . . . . ?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:52 pm: You'll have to buy the book to find out.

[lrusso216] 3:50 pm: Great. I'll put it on my wish list. Same format? Novel-like narrative?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:52 pm: Yes, very same format. Dramatic nonficition narrative, reads like a novel.

[dgmitchell] 3:53 pm: I have a question . . . . other than your own research, what books have you read lately that you can recommend?

[Gregory Freeman] 3:54 pm: It's not exactly current, but one of my recent favorties was Manhunt by ??? I can't remember the author right now. IT's the story of Lincoln's assassination and the hunt for the conspirators. Amazingly well done, a great read. And I tell everyone to read World War Z. Very different from my stuff, but it's so well done.

[Slipdigit] 3:55 pm: James L Swanson

[Gregory Freeman] 3:55 pm: Ah, yes.

[lrusso216] 3:55 pm: OOh. Manhunt was a great story. I read it a while back. High recommendation.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:55 pm: He did such a good job with the research, but the book is a compelling, enjoyable read. I had no idea Booth's horse had only one eye.

[Slipdigit] 3:56 pm: Good book, F500. Will be looking to read Troubled Water in the next few weeks

[PanzerPenguin] 3:56 pm: I second World War Z, great read...(I second World War Z, very well written)

[Gregory Freeman] 3:57 pm: This has been a great chat. Thanks for having me. I hope you enjoy the next ones and keep reading nonfiction. We love you guys out there reading and learning more about history.

[dgmitchell] 3:57 pm: We very much appreciate the time that you have given us and I hope that you will come back to visit us again. This has been a wonderful experience, and for our first author chat, I could not have asked for more! Thanks for answering our questions!

[texson66] 3:57 pm: Thanks!!!!

[PanzerPenguin] 3:57 pm: Yes, thank you for coming to chat with us today!

[lrusso216] 3:57 pm: Thanks, Mr. Freeman.

[macrusk] 3:57 pm: Thank you.

[Fgrun83] 3:57 pm: thank you., was a real nice experience

[Slipdigit] 3:57 pm: If we didn't ask you enough questions this time, you can always come back.

[Gregory Freeman] 3:57 pm: Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for all the good questions. Everyone have a good evening!

[mikebatzel] 3:58 pm: Thanks for sharing your time with us Mr. Freeman

[TiredOldSoldier] 3:58 pm: Thanks

[Slipdigit] 3:58 pm: We'l be posting this trascript in the forum

[Gregory Freeman] 3:58 pm: Bye to all.

[texson66] 3:58 pm: Thanks Slip

[dgmitchell] 3:58 pm: Good night all!

[The Forgotten 500]: Gregory Freeman has left at 3:58 pm

David;
Given the right director and cast F-500 would make a great movie-Goran Bregovic would be a brilliant choice for the musical score; YouTube - Ederlezi - Goran Bregovic
And he is a bilingual virtuoso and could do the 40s American swing also.
JeffinMNUSA

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Jeff -- We can only hope!

David;
The ultimate "WTF moment" in cinematic history could be where George Musulin (a young James Belushi?) is hanging out the aircraft door and looks down only to realize they are over a firefight. This was some high treachery and the book does not say who wanted the team dead but the trail does lead towards the Cambridge 5.
JeffinMNUSA

PS. A review;

The Forgotten 500, Gregory A. Freeman, Penguin 2007, 313pp.


This page turner reads like a Frederick Forsyth "cloak and dagger" thriller but with two important differences; one, it is all true-and two, in real life many mysteries remain mysteries. This well written, well researched account chronicles the daring rescue of 500 US airmen trapped behind enemy lines in Jugoslavia in WWII. The book also is an exploration of the larger than life charactors operating in the Allied secret services and their backgrounds and adventures-as well as analyses of the political/military/cultural situations in Jugoslavia at this chaotic, pivotal historical junction.

During the Air campaigns against the Ploesti oil fields of Romania hundreds of US airmen bailed out of their stricken craft over Jugoslavia. The book begins with the case of an airman who had been told that in the event of a bailout over Jugo he should avoid the Serbian Chetnik forces of Draza Mihailovic, as they would certainly cut off his ears and turn him over to the German forces. The airman did bail out of his bomber and he did fall into the hands of the Chetniks-but his experience was the opposite of what he had been told. In fact the Chetniks were harboring hundreds of US airman at terrible cost to themselves, messages had been sent, but nobody at Allied headquarters was doing anything about getting the fliers back.

How could US and British intelligence have gotten it all so wrong? The author cites the declassified British wartime records of the communist infiltrators in MI5 known as"the Cambridge 5"- and their campaign of disinformation against the Royalist cause in Yugoslavia. Freeman identifies known communist (OSS had them too!) James Klugmann AKA "The sixth man" -who showed up in Bari 3/15/44-as being the chief bureaucratic obstacle and probable tool of the five in the Balkan theater.

It took a personal appeal from Wild Bill Donovan to cut through the smoke and mirrors-"Screw the British!" he told the President, "Let's get our boys out!" It worked. On 7/14/44 the Air Crew Rescue Unit (ACRU) was created and OPERATION HALYARD began.

The situation was so fraught with treachery that Halyard's ACRU team leader aborted mission when he looked down and discovered that the pilot was about to drop them into the middle a firefight. Another attempted drop was aborted when ARCU realized that they were over Partisan territory. The enraged team leader berated the pilot and was told that the man had only been "following instructions"(Klugmann's? The "Chetnik Trap" argument would certainly have been believed if the team would have disappeared). After selecting their own air crew ACRU parachuted into the Chetnik camp on 8/2/44 without incident.

The charismatic Mihailovic remains a controversial figure to this day ( a debate on the subject here; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...=78745&start=0 ). He had backed away from active attacks on Axis forces in the face of their tactic of inflicting hideous reprisals on the civilian population-as opposed to Tito's strategy of attacking the Axis despite reprisals. He was deeply anti communist and his and Tito's forces were fighting a bitter civil war. Churchill had supported both sides until he became convinced that it was pointless to send arms to two sides who mostly used them on each other, and he chose to throw full support to the side that was inflicting the most damage on Britain's enemies at the time-a choice he would come to regret.

The downed airmens' accounts of their experiences with the Chetniks are a look into a movement about which few reliable accounts exist. One airman went on the sabotage mission against an Axis railroad. The Chetnik saboteur placed a bomb disguised as a lump of coal deep in a engine coal bin so it would explode at a later time, so as to not give the Gestapo a precise location as to where the sabotage had taken place. Another account has some downed flyers coming across a man bathing in a stream who turned out to be a German officer taking a swim while his unit plundered a village of foodstuffs. One flyer proposed surrendering when his Chetnik guard informed him that hundreds of villagers were to be shot if the Americans were not turned in. The guard replied that the Germans were going to do what they were going to do anyhow, and that the airmen were too important to be handed over. All of the airmens' accounts agree that the Chetniks were good hosts-sharing their bear hugs, music ( Serbian music is excellent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3q8b...eature=related ), plum brandy and their meager foodstuffs with their American guests. All agreed that the Chetnik leader was a man of enormous humanity, humility and presence.

The rescues were accomplished by a harrowing series C-47 landings on a strip cut by hand from a mountainside. The first landings and takeoffs were accomplished the night of 8/9/44. The ACRU team leader then called for a more massive airlift and the bulk of the escapees were lifted out the next morning under the cover of air strikes on the nearby German forces. 241 US airmen were flown back to Italy! Incredibly the Germans never attacked the landing strip (?), and the C-47s were able to lift escapees off the mountain as they came trickling in over the following months. The number of Americans and others evacuated with the help of the Chetniks eventually reached 512-the largest behind enemy lines aerial rescue of all time.

The concluding chapters of the book begin with the postwar destruction of the Chetnik movement, and the show trial of it's leader. The Halyard survivors protested in front of the Jugoslav embassy and told their stories to the press, but to no avail-Mihailovic was shot by a Red firing squad and Jugoslavia became a firmly communist country. In 1948 Harry S. Truman issued a Legion of Merit medal-the highest possible US honor for a foreign dignitary- to Mihailovic. Truman cited Mihailovic's overall efforts for the Allied cause from 1941-1945 (Spring of 1941 might have been his most vital contribution; http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/...za_russia.html ), as well as his saving of the Forgotten 500. The medal was kept secret until the sixties for political reasons (?). It was not until 2005 that some survivors of Operation Halyard were able to present the Medal to Draza Mihailovic's daughter Gordona-who promptly burst into tears. Some of the old men were also moved to tears and recounted all that Draza had done for them and lamented how unjustly he had been dealt with. It had been sixty years since Operation Halyard...

Jeff Grab
Bayport, MN
July 2009
A link to some of my photo work; http://news.webshots.com/album/165744933gHnoFw

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PS. The Chetniks with their long hair and beards (traditional symbols of Serbian grief going back to the struggles against the Ottomans) must have looked totally barbaric in the industrialized West- especially with the "spit and polish" military types in Britain and the US. You have got to wonder how much this image played in getting them cut off from Western supplies . The media savvy Partisans of Tito sported a clean cut look. The Chetniks in the photo below are probably clean shaven only because they are light machine gunners and long beards might have gotten caught in the bolts.

Attached Images

Chetnik.jpg (55.7 KB, 4 views)

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