Smokestack: That was also something I wasnt aware of until over the last few years about uboats with all kinds of small arms. We learn something new every day eh?

Liked your Pez Dispenser joke [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the Aircraft info.

I also agree with your last two comments too.

Tallyrand: Yep, U 505 is still on display in Chicago. Every year the surviving vets still get together. There are now only 5 U 505 crew still living.

If ever in Germany, you can see the following Uboats on display. U 2540 at Bremerhaven (Hope I got the number right) it is a type XXI. Then you have U 995 in Laboe which is the only surviving type VII-C still existing, then you have U 10 which is in Wilhelmshaven.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

In Saving Private Ryan, it was not propaganda, but the fact that Steve S had the German soldiers fight like they didn't have a clue! I'm not going to go anyfurther than saying that it was in the 'fight scene' at the end. The Germans had four years of battle experience, even with new recruits 'old hands' would have lead the 'green' troops and taught them the 'tricks of the trade'.

And in U-571 the americans knew the gun was loaded, it shouldn't have been, there was no chance. Thge whole film sucked big time!

And it is possible to have a film that is accurate, it doesn't have to entirely accurate like 'that division didn't have those vehicles!' and it is possible to have it entertaining for the average joe as well. Its just not possible for Hollywood!

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"
Homer Simpson

dp

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: Madcap7 ]

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"
Homer Simpson

I got the impression that in SPR The germans were not fighting oddly or inexperianced ish. In fact the germans were about to win the battle if it wasn't for those mustangs (i admit that the bombing looked fake though) But nonetheless the germans were about to defeat the US forces in the end of the movie...if it wasn't for those Mustangs...which is pretty accurate...because the german armor was very much afraid of air attack. In which they had liitle defence.


oh and what does "dp" stand for?

I would tend to agree with you Ron, The germans were not good guys or bad guys, just enemy soldiers, How else is one supposed to regard them

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

Couple of Observations:

1. The German in Band of Brothers is really a faceless enemy which works fine as the story focuses on the Americans. Compared to SPR the German killed in the barn in episode 4 did not strike me as a evil guy just somebody scared in the situation he found himself in.

2. Was I the only one who found it odd that a German destroyer was in the middle of hte Atlantic?

Regards

Paul

D.P. = Displaced Person.

Question, Why is it so odd that there was a German Destroyer in the middle of the Atlantic?

In fact, there is nothing odd about that. Now what would have been odd to see would have been a German Battleship in the middle of the Atlantic at that stage of the war.

Just because the Battleships basically stopped operations didnt mean the rest of the Kriegsmarine surface navy did. In fact, the German Destroyers were in operation all over the ocean even untill the end or after the ending of hostilities. True, they were mostly employed as evacuation ships--like at Riga, but they also had many other missions.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

What is strange about a German destroyer in the middle of the Atlantic?

1. How did it get there?
2. What the Devil is it doing there??
3. How on Earth does the crew think they're going to get back???

Especially 2 is the clincher. Let's assume the destroyer has somehow evaded aerial detection. What would a German DD be doing in the Atlantic? Hunting British subs chasing German convoys?

Come on..

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

yeah i agree...german DD's did operate all the way till the end of the war but only in costal operations. There really is no reason for a german DD to be BY ITSELF in the middle of the atlentic...it surley would have been attacked by aircraft. Heck the subs couldn't even get away from aircraft let alone the destroyers!
Looks like a small error but i'll live with it!!

See, the Destroyer was there to launch the single engine German patrol plane that showed up in the middle of the Atlantic

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

I think the Allies should have tried to capture the destroyer as obviously it was powered by seawater. Certainly a diesel fueled destroyer wouldnt have been able to operate so far from home!

Dear Andreas, im not sure at how to answer #1 and #3 questions without sounding snide and rude, but I will try for #2.

#2) What is it doing there? Any number of possibilities. It could have been part of a convoy of some type as anti sub protection.. it could have been the escourt to a ship like The Wilhelm Gustloff--even though that would be farther out than would be believable for the Gustloff to have been sailing. The Zerstorer could have been on a rendezvoux of somekind...maybe with a wolfpack? there were still wolfpacks at that stage of the war. It could have been somekind of a picket ship on patrol.... or, it could have been on its way home from some other place? or it could have been there by chance??

I agree that there might have been no reason for the Zerstorer to be out there, but then again, just how FAR was "out there?". I strongly disagree with what was said that Zerstorers were only operating in coastal operations--that is not true.

They had escourt duties, resupply missions--etc. Yes it would be unlikely thet would have gone undetected from allied aircover, but its possible..

Contrary to possible popular belief--not all German surface warships were sunk in ww2. I dont know how many survived, but some did and were given to other countries like possibly Norway, or Finland or some other country even France maybe???

Just my 5 pfennigs worth...

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

An aircraft carrier, several Destroyers, and scores of E-Boats, minelayers, U-boats and other vessells were captured by the Allies after the war. The Russians captured many of these boats, as they were hiding in the Baltic(the rest were hiding in Norway), the Russians kept the ships they wanted, the vessels they didnt keep they passed on to their Allies or scrapped them. Many of these ships were returned to East Germany to form her Navy in the Fifties. The Western Allies, for the most part, destroyed captured German boats.
A side note is that the Chinese bought most of the former East German ships from re-unified Germany in '91, some of these were ships that served in WWII

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

And if you ever go to Wilhelmshaven, Germany, you will find a large museum in Jadestr, before you get to the Esplanade. This museum has U 10, (Last commanded byb Juergen Weber of The Munich Submariners Association) plus a minesweeper and a turret from a warship-all on display outside.

The museum has much info on German Destroyers-or did when I was there last year. They had films and pamphlets, books etc. They had some very good info on Zerstorer ops, but I wasnt able to buy any books as that section was already closed when Susanne and I arrived. We barely had time to tour the Minesweeper and U 10, before the doors were shut. I took a cool picture through U 10s periscope, but still havent had it developed yet

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I don't get it, you say you know people who've served on U-boats and yet you insist on the possible existance of a German DD in the middle of the Atlantic?

"#2) What is it doing there? Any number of possibilities. It could have been part of a convoy of some type as anti sub protection.."

Give me an example of one German convoy in the Atlantic during WW2. There are none. And certainly not at this point in the war. There are some things that could be called 'convoys' maybe close inshore, for example all u-boats that left port would be preceded by a big ship full of empty barrels to clear mines. It is possible that a destroyer might come along too, for sport. But that would end before being out of sight of land.

"it could have been the escourt to a ship like The Wilhelm Gustloff--even though that would be farther out than would be believable for the Gustloff to have been sailing."

And what, pray, would the Gustloff be doing in the middle of the Atlantic (by then a hospital ship, BTW). There were no German merchantmen in the Atlantic. They were all interned or sunk or had managed to get back home in '39. A few - very few - resupply vessels managed to stay around until 1941, I believe.

"The Zerstorer could have been on a rendezvoux of somekind...maybe with a wolfpack?"

And what could the DD give the wolfpack? The DD wouldn't even have the range to reach a wolfpack that is in the middle of the Atlantic. And rendezvous between DDs and SSs never happened, AFAIK.

"there were still wolfpacks at that stage of the war. It could have been somekind of a picket ship on patrol...."

Come on, patrolling against or for what? If you're thinking of having a DD in a sort of u-boat supportive role (I'll find the convoy, you go get it) you must realise that the life expectancy of the destroyer is pretty close to zero as soon as it has found one.

"or, it could have been on its way home from some other place?"

There were no German DDs operating abroad in any place that would force them to cross or sail through the middle of the Atlantic.

"or it could have been there by chance??"

I'm afraid that this is what the makers of the film decided should be the case. It's sort of sad when you think about it!

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Have you seen the film U-571? Terrible, just terrible I tell you!

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

Actually I didn't, Gott sei Dank! A few of my friends went and told me how terrible it was so I decided not to go, even though I usually don't miss up on a war movie. I even went to see Thin Red Line, which seemed to be more a sort of documentary on the plant- and wildlife of the tropics....

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

My reply..

I do know many how were in the KM, with a few who were also on DDs then went to uboats. In fact, my best friend in Germany, who is a DKG recipient, served on both Destroyers and Uboats--uboat under the Kapitans Luth, and Freiwald. This man was decorated by Kapitan Dommes in Singapore 1945.

I do know HIS service record and what he has told me. I know that at least his destroyed had in fact sailed through the Atlantic as an escourt to some other larger ship. True, this would have been in I think 1941 or 42, I dont remember which. My point is is that Destroyers were acting as escourts to other ships in the Kriegsmarine. Ths same goes for Destroyers from many other Navies. SO the prospect of a Destroyer being in the mid Atlantic is not hard to believe.

I never said theat the Gustloff was wayyyy out in the Atlantic, I merely used its name as a reference. Sorry I cannot be more accurate, I have no access to all of my books as they are still in storage

My Opa, iwas a highly decorated merchant marine captain. He had been in battle on at least 3 occasions that I know of. Two were in the Atlantic, and one was in the Indian Ocean. The Atlantic actions were against a surface warship, the next was against a Uboat operating in a wolfpack of Uboats. The action in the Indian Ocean was against U 181.

I have read some of his letters talking about his experiances from 1942--to late 1944. He mentioned seeing a German surface warship on the first action that he was part of. I do not know if it was a Destroyer or a Cruiser. I do know it wasnt a Torpedoboot or something like that, it could habve been an armed Blockade Runner, or a Raider. Yes, those operated all over the seas and throuought the war. Dont ask me for particular names and dates as I dont know what thaey are and would hate to be telling you a lie.

All I can say is to read Otto Giese book, he tells about such things. By the way, he was a merchantman before becoming a uboat officer serving under Wolfgang luth and Kurt Friewald. German DDs did sail through the Atlantic as escourt ships. True, I dont know exact dates and most likely it was in the first 2 yrs of the war, but they did, sail the Atlantic.

I do totally agree with you that Hollywood des have many wierd ideas. I just wonder how screwed up the movie that they are supposed to be making about Erich Hartmann?? which is supposed to have Tom Cruise as E.H.

A DD COULD give some fuel. I had never said a DD would do that in reality. This whole argument is what COULD have been because of the scene in the movie.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

It's always dangerous to trust a man's personal account of when something happened (especially when it's verbal). I know that from personal experience, don't ask me in which year I got my bike, please! [img]smile.gif[/img] I could probably guess, but there'd be margin of one or two years that would matter in WW2. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Raiders", Hilfkreuzer, did of course operate all over the world and I think there were some around as late as 1943. However they wouldn't look like or be armed like a destroyer. For one thing they wouldn't have depth charges or any sort of ASW weaponry whatsoever.

I'm still not sure about any German DD ever crossing or actually finding itself in the middle of the Atlantic but will try to check on that. My position is still that they didn't have the range to do so, and no reason to do so either.

Ships to escort didn't really exist, and for raids other ships are far more suitable.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Andreas Seidel :

I even went to see Thin Red Line, which seemed to be more a sort of documentary on the plant- and wildlife of the tropics....

I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE. THE LATEST VERSION OF JOYCES BOOK WAS CRAP.
I AM EXPECTING "WINDTALKERS" TO SUCK ALSO.
I'M JUST WAITING FOR "LORD OF THE RINGS", I ALREADY HAVE A BABYSITTER LINED UP FOR DECEMBER 19TH FOR MY SON [img]smile.gif[/img]

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It's a sick, sick world. I'm a happy man.

Hallo Andreas: You are correct about raiders, and most only carried one or two deck guns (Hidden) but as many as four. This is not including MGs.

Most of the ones seen in Ducumentaries--at least that I have seen and do have teped, show two deck guns. As for depth charges, I agree, I never heard of any carrying them.

As for my KM friends memory, I see no problem with it. He sent me his war service records sometime ago, I will see if I can find them and submit them here. Then mention his time as a Merchantman, serving on Destroyers, and his time with Kaptains Luth and Freiwald.

He was serving on destroyers from late 1939 to late 42, then was transferred to uboats. He was on uboats till the ending of the war. He was part of Luths crew when they claimed the uboat from the shipyard.

DDs did make long voyages, but how long, I dont know.

Take the Narvik, operation as an example. DDs were used as attack ships, for bombardment, troop ferrys and escourt ships and evauation ships. True they werent very successful, but they were there. Im citing this as only one example for lack of time.

PS, thin red line sucked big time.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

An Erich Hartman movie, no way. Are you for real Carl? Please tell me about what you know about it.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Evans:
He was serving on destroyers from late 1939 to late 42, then was transferred to uboats. He was on uboats till the ending of the war. He was part of Luths crew when they claimed the uboat from the shipyard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
there is no doubt destroyers played an active role in the first half of the war...but the fact is that by the end of the war the missions a german destroyer safely carry out were small...i'm sure the German navy wouldn't just nonchalantly send out a destroyer into the deep atlantic at that stage...they wern't stupid.

DDs did make long voyages, but how long, I dont know.

Take the Narvik, operation as an example. DDs were used as attack ships, for bombardment, troop ferrys and escourt ships and evauation ships. True they werent very successful, but they were there. Im citing this as only one example for lack of time.

Well destroyers did play a support role in Narvik...but first off there were much more than just one...plus Navik was coastal AND allied air power was not as strong at that point making an operation like that possible.


I think the point people are trying to make is that sure MAYBE in the beginning of the war it was possible for a destroyer to have SOME KIND of mission in the atlantic...but at the time for this particular destroyer to be in the atlantic is plain too unrealistic even for chance. Almost like throwing away a perfectly good ship...heck at that time even the majority of u boat operations were pulled in closer to England.
And in my opinion if a some subs needed supplies they would use a supply sub or a bigger ship...for maybea destroyer could do alittle for one sub but not many.
Using a destroyer for searching makes no sense because that was the u-boats job...the split up till one of them found a convoy...then radioed the coordinates..then a wolfpack formed...there would be no need for a destroyer to this mission.
OH and as for the previos discussion about captured german ships...don't forget about possibly the most famous captured german surface ship...the "Prinze Eugene"
She was an escort to the Bismark in 1940 or 41 (i forgot) she was taken by the americans as a war prize and then taken to Bikini Insland part of the Marshal Islands...and there was sunk in the atomic tests there...along with other famous ships such as: Nagato, Nevada, Saratoga, and several other smaller ships from other navies...i'm sure some u-boats must have been there too.