I often mention on this forum that my Polish British Para vet often scoffs at the movie "a Bridge too Far" so much, that whenever I mention it, I feel I might send him to an early grave.

So I leave tend to leave the conversation at that, but can any of you tell me why he could have thought it was *that* bad? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I guess my question then is in too parts...

How accurate was the Movie vs Reality?

How accurate was the Book vs Reality?

[ 20. January 2004, 04:43 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

I've never made a serious study of Market Garden and watching the film on TV with Elliot Gould telling the Royal Engineers what to do etc was enough to make view it as more Hollywood casual entertainment.

However, at the time when the film was due for release in Britain, I was working for Lt.Col. Brian Hodges who was there with the Paras. I walked into his office one morning to find him in a flushed rage - they only time in two years I ever saw him that way. The reason for his rage was that film. He told me he and his comrades were contacting their MPs and other influential people they knew, to get it banned or at least edited.

Of course, nothing happened about the film as its success meant bucks for the UK cinemas and the British investors and the future bucks from US film work in the UK. Attenborough (not the animal one but the smarmy sh/t my old man slapped many years ago - way to go dad ) has shown on numerous occasions he's only interested in lovie points and bucks and if that includes selling out British history, so what. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

No.9

Funnily enough, No 9, I was just discussing Elliot Gould & the Royal Engineeers with 'Sapper' off-Forum.

A few years back my Dad & I went on a 'Holts Battlefield Tour' to Market-Garden. the guest-speaker was Major-General Tony Jones RE who, as a Lieutenant, got the MC for removing demolitions charges from Nijmegen Bridge.

He said that he couldn't bear to watch the scene in 'Bridge Too Far' where Gould, cigar clenched in teeth, asks the British Officer :
'Do you know what a Bailey Bridge is, son ?'

I remember the General said :'That scene always makes me livid. If I'd been there, I'd have said, 'Of course I do, you damned fool ! We've been building the bl**dy things all the way from the beaches !' '

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Are you sure he was British Martin? I would have thought the British reaction would have been to blow a whistle and shout; "Right, everyone down tools. Uncle Sam's going to show us how to build a bridge,......go on then, away you go, we’re all watching." - (cue slow hand-clap)

No.9

ok, so Gould is a cheesy American in this Movie (actually in ALL movies [img]smile.gif[/img] ) who is a bit over condescending to the Brits.

I would've thought that was because of the inherent (albeit friendly) rivalry between the forces. Any movie that shows this has to can't be blamed for that. Surely that is not the only reason the movie is scorned ... how about actual operations vs events and (more importantly) how the soldiers conducted those operations?

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I feel like a 'devil's advocate' here as I have to say that I like the film and enjoy watching it many times !

I see why they used a 'big-name' cast to try to draw the punters in. Interesting how some of the 'names' made a very good job of their roles ( especially Edward Fox as Horrocks ), some just cruised through and picked up the money ( eg Robert Redford ) and some then-new-faces saw a great opportunity to make their mark ( Anthony Hopkins ). To me, Elliot Gould was mis-cast and just too 'hammy' compared to the others.

There are many, many factual changes in the film which had to be made to try to present a coherent story of what was a complex operation. The real controversy seems to surround Dirk Bogarde's very plausible portrayal of 'Boy' Browning. It deeply upset Browning's family and Hamish Mahaddie, who acted as aviation consultant on the film, insisted on having his name removed from the credits; he felt so strongly that Browning had been maligned in the film.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I agree with Martin - I very much liked the movie, and I think it give a realistic picture of how the battle took place. I'm not saying it was realistic, but it seemed realistic (unlike e.g. 'Battle of the Bulge').

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But those are the sentiments whenever a film is made about the British for the American market Martin. All the British officers are pompous nunces, all the British soldiers are ‘gor blimey gov’ thickos, and everyone wishes the Yanks were there to ‘save their ass’. In short, it’s another load of Hollywood type bollocks.

And Brat, I don’t dislike Gould, he’s just had some cr@p roles. However, in Mash. Busting and the remake of The Lady Vanishes he’s great. My favourite performance is a spin-up between the latter two, but, I have to credit him for Mash as it must have been hard to have to compete with Sally Kellerman’s jugs? [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No.9

Christian - I always keep in mind General Urquhart's own comment about the film : -

' A reasonably accurate spectacular - NOT a documentary '.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

As in any movie regardless of country of origin, will always have descrencies in them. There will always be some kind of deviation from fact because of the entertainment value. I believe as long as the plot is accurate and a MAJORITY of the movie follows fact, then it is a good movie. If I want accuracy, then I look at documentaries.

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Ok some comments from our collegues in the Axis history forum:

[ 26. January 2004, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

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It is a known fact that Waffen SS units took to calling each other by the Wehrmacht ranks since they do work alongside those units. This was at first resisted by Himmler but later on let it go.

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[quote]Originally posted by BratwurstDimSum:
[QB] Ok some comments from our collegues in the Axis history forum:

From what I can recall, the film was based primarily on Cornelius Ryan's book of the same name. I think at the time (late 1970s) that there were few books detailing the Arnhem operation, (but am prepared to be proved wrong). In the book, it mentions that Graebner was killed during the assault on the bridge but didn't go into detail how.

The film shows Graebner in a (replica?) Sdkfz 251 halftrack - I recently found out that he had a captured British armoured car (Humber?)
Apparently it was quite commonplace for W-SS officers to address each other with the Heer rank equivalent. Technically, their rank would be e.g. "SS-Brigadefuehrer und General der Waffen SS" or similar (don't pull me up if I got the ranks wrong, I don't have my books to hand!)
I suppose it could be down to a glitch in the script writing - most war films have such errors, which go unnoticed by the majority of the viewing public - it's only us obsessives that pick up on such details! [img]smile.gif[/img]
An early example of the movie industry striving for authenticity, maybe - shame about all the dark grey vehicles, though [img]tongue.gif[/img]
A lot of Schell's role appears to have been a portmanteau of General Bittrich and General Kurt Student, who actually made the comment. A bit of artistic licence, to keep up the pace of the film (and I presume, to avoid employing another actor).

You are correct.
Then again, 25 years ago, I guess that the interest in accuracy was as yet undeveloped - the only people who would have picked up would have been the ones who were actually there or who had read the book.

Trivia point - the scene where the Leapard tank smashes through the house during the street fighting was apparently an accident but kept in for its atmosphere.

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Also, The brave British Para runs out into a field to bring back a Stores Containers, nearly makes it back only to be killed as he reaches safety, The Container falls open to reveal it's full of Red Berets.

Nearly right, except the Brit doesnt get shot & die, only a little exaggerated.

I would like to see a movie of the Arhnem part only, The race for the Bridge, the efforts of 2 Para at the Bridge, The battle for Oosterboek and the landing of the Polish Bde should have been enough to keep one in suspense.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

Then you need 'Theirs Is The Glory'...!

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yea, but its always better when its a good movie

CvM

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The real thing I want to know from this thread is why did number 9's dad hit Richard Attenboro???

Martin wasn't the scene whre Gould asked do you know what a Baily bridge is...from 2 scenes, first where he drives up to an hq and tells the GI to get our British cousins to make sure they do this right and have it at the front of the column... that was him to a GI, and another where he is helping build the thing, saying to another GI havent you ever built a Baily bridge before son or summit like it..Only time I recall him speaking to Brit officer was to Joe when he asked if they had the Baily crap...and he replied surely you mean that ingenious great industrial whatever or something like that? Good movie for all its misdemeanours...

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I'll have to watch it again, urqh...I always wince at the Gould scenes; to me they just don't 'fit' with the rest....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I like the film, it answered a fair few questions for me. I always wondered why XXX corps was stopped, now I know the answer, their tanks were fiberglass shells on top of motorbikes!

I always figured the thing about Elliot Gould is that he does not seem to be an officer, rather too much like Groucho Marx.

As for the rest, well, it is entertaining and not hugely inaccurate (in the U-571 sense).

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