Stefan

What's your opinion on those who tried to kill Hitler before the war?

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... yes but ALL of Hitler's coterie supported his war aims in the beginning though...but no other leading member of the Wehrmacht underwent quite such a 'conversion' to the point of attempting to do anything about it...while I agree that doesn't make him a 'hero' it does make him more 'sympathetic'...

Stefan;
Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I would argue that ANY group of people who put in a viable effort to end the slaughter would have to be considered "Heroic". No matter what their motivations and what they had done before.
JeffinMNUSA

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So does that go for Albert Speer?

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Im late coming to this thread and still need to read the whole thing. Suffice to say though, I will be watching it purely because its a ww2 movie and I like all on here lap up ww2 movies surely.

Saying that...the Fox critic is missing something here....aint all American movies, soaps, cartoons got a baddie.....? The baddie I've noticed no matter what or where he is supposed to come from...generally has a British accent....seriously....strange that...

Even Stewie in Family guy.....any evil to be done......get a Brit accent.....Stefan you have a job for life mate.

I say, you aren't trying to call me posh are you old boy?

Depends who, why and when. There were some fairly heroic resistance members, people who fought tooth and nail from the beginning, if anything this makes it all the more distasteful to dress Stauffenberg up as a hero.

Fair enough, I don't object to any positive portrayal of him he was apparently in many ways a very moral man and what he did was undoubtedly brave (god knows I wouldn't have done it) but to portray him as a hero? To me that is a step too far.

Incidentally, I watched the trailer today at the cinema, it looked pretty good, I'll definitely be going along to see it.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Yeah even for that stinking skunk Albert Speer. The tribunal judges apparently agreed and gave the guy a long sentence as opposed to the death penalty he deserved. Desperate times...
JeffinMNUSA

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My point is, does that make him a hero?

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Now whose gonna critique Michael Craig's Defiance?

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Time is only enemy you'll never get rid of.

Stefan;
In that instance that he foiled Hitler's orders to destroy the German infrastructure-Yes! The rotten no goodnik did one right thing, I guess. It made a huge difference to the occupation authorities' problems in administering the conquered state.
JeffinMNUSA

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But Jeff you are missing a very simple point, he did one thing right, does that make him a hero? 'Hero' is a much devalued word in the age we live in, footballers are heroes, so are celebrities to some people, so maybe it is worth stopping to think about what it means. Frankly to say that Albert Speer is heroic for doing one thing right after all he did is just plain idiotic. Stauffenberg is in more of a grey area however I still feel that after supporting the Nazi war effort for so long to call him a hero for deciding to have a bash at Hitler because it became clear they were going to lose is just wrong.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

I saw this movie yesterday. Acting aside, I thought it was filmed rather well. As far as the clothing and the sense you were in the 1940's and war and all. Some questionable points, of course, and I think the actor who was the commander of the reserve forces (the one in the swimming pool/getting his haircut both times they are ordered to Stand By) would have made a much more convincing lead actor. Had that look and accent to him that would have made him a perfect 'Nazi/German'.

I couldn't get over the fact that Tom Cruises hair just looked...fake?

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Stefan;
Well here again we agree to disagree-most people caught up in totalitarian state dictatorships do as they are told or else. So here is this guy Stauffenberg being blown along like a leaf in the totalitarian wind-just like everyone else who does not want to disappear without a trace- and one day he takes a stand against it? Pretty "heroic" considering that they won't just kill you-but they just might kill your entire family. Speer is a little more awkward of a question as he was a pretty active player in the NAZI mechanisms-and indeed set up the slave labor system.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. And the Bielskis rate as heros EVEN IF THEY CAN BE FOUND GUILTY of the Noboliki massacre. Why? Well the choice was to join the Red Partisans or not survive. The Red Partisans were quite simply the Red Army behind the lines. One followed orders in the Red Army if one knew what was good for him! And given the incredibly savage nature of the war behind the lines? Well I would not be surprised...Still I tend to think that Bielskis were not involved and were simply named because their name had become so famous.

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But that is the point, he, like everyone else, went along with it. I feel that in 1944, when everything was clearly going down the pan, it was too late to qualify as a hero. A brave man maybe but not a hero.

I have put the Bielski stuff on the other thread where it belongs.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Stefan;
OK-a brave man then. There is a saying "all the heroes are dead."
JeffinMNUSA

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Oh no!.....

Tom Cruise May Face Legal Action Over Hitler Globe

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There are still heroes Jeff, we just tend to ignore them.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Gosh, that just proves people can sue you for anything!

Unless Cruise was a producer or director, I don't think suing him would go anywhere, but let's stay tuned, shall we?

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“The first lesson is that you can't lose a war if you have command of the air, and you can't win a war if you haven't.” - General Jimmy Doolittle

Maybe I didnt say that right, What I ment by exactly is that it bothers me when Random people say "hey what about the Jewish representation" during a War film when its not nesscary during the film

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You guys need to watch the Documentary "The Wehrmacht" It has first hand accounts of the Oath's they made to Hitler and the guilt they had to carry out order's that they didnt want to do, because of the result being killed by their own men. The movie plays lot of recordings from Trent park were the Nazi officers were kept and speak their mind freely not knowing they were being recorded. Everyone knew what was going on by Hitter was wrong. 2 things kept them from stopping Hitler 1) their Prussian military up bringing to be loyal and their oath to Hitler 2) Their numbers were also not enough. This has been brought up by the Historians who study the Brisith secret service recordings of the Nazi Officers at Trent park.

18 million Wehrmacht versus 30,000 Officers.
(side note 5.5 million Died 1 in 3 chance of surviving the war for the Wehrmacht)
Please watch the film before challening this statement the recordings are invaluable.

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not all Hero's are perfect.

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Okay, I'll bite on that.

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Best Regards,
JW

Stefan,

At what exact date is somone no longer a hero if they plan to kill Hitler?

is it 1939? 1943? What date would you brand someone "too late to be a hero" for trying to kill Hitler?

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I disagree in that ALL of them supported Herr mustache from the very beginning. Admiral Canaris didn't and who also had several run-ins w/ Reinhard Heydrich & others throughout the war.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Couldn't agree more. IMHO, this seems to be the act of someone abandoning a sinking ship. A brave man yes, but that's the extent of it.

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Scott