Problem was, Kai - having good intel is one thing - interpreting it correctly & making good use of it was something else entirely....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I guess Martin that the info received often was too good to be true- you never knew if the Germans had gotten the idea that the code was broken and sent false messages. Oops a trap...

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Thanks Kai. Now i know 'bout Ultra.

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Yours faithfully, Munken

"Veni, Vidi, Vici"= I came I saw, I conquered. - Julius Caesar.
"We shall never surrender"- Winston Churchill.
"United we are strong, united we will win"

Due to the RAF and Royal Navy based on Malta. The British U-boats based there sunk thousands of tons of Axis shipping, which cost Rommel his victory.

ULTRA didn't sink them. ULTRA told the RAF and RN where and at what time were the supplies and then they sink them.

And yes, you are alright about the German torpedo boats, but you can't fight the Royal Navy only with torpedo boats...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I would be curious about the BRT claimed by British subs. The Kriegsmarine's biggest fear was being caught in the open by surface ships and maruading Beufighters and later Mossies......

Fried can U find a source on the British sub claims but I would like to read this and file it

thank U

~E

Well, I have an article about HMS Upholder, the most succesful British submarine of the war, which sank 133.940 tons of Axis shipping. I must come with more data later, right?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Bitte ! Fried, I would love to see what you have on papier. Is this from the Deutsche Kriegsmarine book U have quoted in the past......letzt Jahr ?

~E

try this site
http://www.ahoy.tk-jk.net/macslog/Th...arineinWo.html

The role of the RN submarine service is one of "forgotten" stories of WW2, which is surprising considering how successful they were.
In the Med they are credited with sinking 286 enemy supply ships totalling over a million tons as well as 4 cruisers, 17 destroyers and no less than 21 enemy submarines (16 Italian and 5 German ) though the loss of 45 RN and 5 Allied submarines was heavy considering the small number involved.

[ 17. June 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Unless I am reading my German incorrectly I do not see one German Destroyer sunk in the Med waters. Assuming they are Italien ? and the cruisers ?

~E

Yes, they were all Italian built ships, though a couple may have been taken over by Germany after Italy's surrender in 1943.
The largest warship the Germans ever had in the Med was a U-Boat, nothing else could get passed Gibralter.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

This is most likely due to the fact that in the later half of the war Kriegsmarine operations were largely confined to the Baltic. The entrance of which was heavily mined, so RN submarines were unable to enter this sea.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

It appears the the Kriegsmarine should have feared the RN submarines a little more . While I don't have the figure for Kriegsmarine warship losses to RN subs (I will try to find it [img]smile.gif[/img] ), the figure for Merchant shipping sunk in "Home waters" by RN subs is 104 ships (318,000tons ), while surface RN warships sank only 86 (303,000tons)
Though it has to be admitted the RAF was more successful with 289 ships( 574,000tons), the highest losses inflicted were through joint RAF/RN efforts. Mines laid by both services accounted for 604 ships(660,000tons).

source, Stephan Roskill, 'The Navy At War 1939-45'
.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

ships losses:

http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubb...=000100#000010

As for "ULTRA" (the code breaking of "Enigma") I have read an interesting article dealing with that issue from the German Navy side: Of course German Naval Intelligence went pretty much suspicious and sceptical, and several requests were made internally to change the code, but all were dismissed by higher authorities due to overconfidence that "Enigma" is "unbreakable" and the clever, because not extensive use of ULTRA intelligence by the British.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Indeed Andy, Ultra was of such importance to the allied war effort in European and Middle Eastern theatres that not all of the information gleaned could be acted on.

Otherwise the enemy would basically put 2 and 2 toghether and the game would have been up.

If all the information Ultra gave us had been used against the enemy then eventually it would have been rendered useless by the enemies intelligence services who would have smelled a very big rat.

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Yes. That is what nearly all British cargo ships did when traveling to Egypt from the Itlaian declaration of war in June 1940. The Italian air forces and torpedo boats based in Sicilly made it nealy impossible for British ships to transit from Gibaltar to the eastern Mediterrainian. If you look at the map you will see a strait between Sicillyand Tunisia that can be covered by the Italian aircraft. Britian did try running a few convoys through this route. The Pedistal Convoy was the most famous. In each case the losses were severe. Virtually all supplys from Britian to Egypt were sent via the six week voyage around Africa. After the Allies catured Tunisia and established air superiority over the Med the cargo ships could transit the Med again, rather than circle Africa as they had done for three years.

Italy was secure anyway until 1943. Aside from a few raids launched from Egypt the Italian ship construction was unmolested for three years

Intially the German capitol ships made a couple raids into the Atlantic and sunk a reasonable ammount of cargo ships. The Brits were concerned that more raids were planned. When the Germans accquired the French Atlantic ports the Brits became really concerned. Convoys which are the best protection from submarines can be very vulnerable to a battleship/heavy crusier combination. Britian did not have enough battleships to properly escourt all te convoys so there was some danger. If you want to understand the problem of the capitol ship/submarine combination against a convoy study what happened to the PQ17 & PQ18 convoys to Murmansk. All this is why BRitian was so set on sinking the Bismarck in 1941. There were already the Scharnhorst & Geisnau based in the French ports when the Bismarck made its last voyage. With the Bismark and Prinz Eugen based in France as well, and several dozen submarines the threat to the sea lanes to Britian woud have been very serious.

The French ports were just as good a base to concentrate the German Navy for raiding the Atlantic. Possesing Gibraltar would have eliminated a important port for the British. They usually kept a aircraft carrier, a couple battleships, and several criusiers there. This was part of the forces that corraled the Bismarck. Allowing the Italian navy to send some ships to the Atlantic would be just as usefull as sending German ships to the Med. The Italian submarines that made it to the Atlantic were a usefull reinforcement for the Germans. Had the submarines a easier time reaching the Atlantic more could have been done. Had the Italians been able to base a few heavy crusiers at Gibraltar, and sortie them into the Atlantic at the same time the Bismarck made its sortie the situation would have been so much more difficult for Britian.

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