Something about the war that has been bugging me for ages, I was hoping you guys might have some insight as to why this occured:

All Germany (or Italy) had to do was block off the very narrow inlet to the Med, and that whole area became secured, the Italians could concentrate on building ships, the Germans would have a secure route for supplies to North Africa and things would have been very different.

As I understand it, Spain was supplied by Nazi Germany during the inter-war years and the government was at least friendly towards Germany, so why did Germany stop at France? It would have been trivial for them to keep rolling right in, secure the Med entrance and win the war...

...what am I overlooking?

Quote:

All Germany (or Italy) had to do was block off the very narrow inlet to the Med, and that whole area became secured, the Italians could concentrate on building ships, the Germans would have a secure route for supplies to North Africa and things would have been very different. As I understand it, Spain was supplied by Nazi Germany during the inter-war years and the government was at least friendly towards Germany, so why did Germany stop at France? It would have been trivial for them to keep rolling right in, secure the Med entrance and win the war... ...what am I overlooking?

1) The narrow inlet to the Mediterranean is distinguished by a British territory called Gibraltar. It houses a naval base and garrison, and given the narrow width of the Straits of Gibraltar, makes it perfectly placed to cut off the Mediterranean. In order to control the Med., the Germans/Italians would have to capture or destroy Gibraltar, something they did not have the capacity to do.

2) Even if Gibraltar is removed from the equation, the Germans/Italians would still have to neutralise British-held Malta, which housed naval and air forces and sank a huge quantity of Axis shipping – something they failed to do despite continuous and massive air bombardment.

3) The French/Spanish border is an extremely inhospitable mountain range highly unsuited to the type of armoured warfare Germany favoured.

This is a very good question indeed & is in fact one I was asked by a friend just recently ; I was quite stumped for an answer !

This is very simplistic, but as I understand it Hitler was very confident of Spanish 'co-operation' following the help extended to Franco during the Civil War. Hitler needed to capture Gibraltar and was also a little nervous of Portuguese intervention.

Hitler met with Franco at the famous Hendaye Conference, 23 October 1940 where Franco presented an impossible list of 'terms and conditions'. ( Franco knew that his country, weakened by the recent Civil War, could not afford to become embroiled in another conflict so soon, possibly fatally weakening his own position ).

Following this meeting, Hitler famously remarked that he would 'Rather have three or four teeth removed than go through that again'.

Negotiations became so protracted that the only alternative would have been for the Wehrmacht to fight their way through - and by the time that this was realised, all the Germans' strength was needed for Barbarossa.

So Hitler fatally misjudged the potential of Franco's support. Gibraltar was tremendously important to the British war effort - the Italian Fleet could not venture out of the Med and German surface vessels could not intervene in the Middle East. ( One can perhaps see the need to sink the French battleships at Oran and Dakar in a different light...).

The above is only my own synthesis of various recently-read material - I'd be very interested to hear other views.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

The other way into the Med was via the Suez Canal, Egypt, in the hands of the British which the Italians and Germans were unable to depose. The Med could not be secured by taking Gibraltar alone. The Straights of Gibraltar is a bottleneck entrance for shipping wanting to enter the Med, but equally it is a bottleneck exit for any wanting to leave! If Italy had remained neutral, as she should have done, Hitler would have been perfectly content with his conquest radiating from Germany.

Franco’s side gained the controlling hand in Spain. However, this did not mean that his opponents overnight conceded defeat and instantly sided with him. IF Franco threw in with Hitler, his fascist forces would, at least in part, have had to join the German campaign and therefore would not have been available to maintain rule by force of the opposing Spanish population. Hitler would have found a similar situation to that in Italy in 1943, being, fighting his war against the Allies while in the middle of a Civil War.

No.9

I agree with Martin's points, but I have some extra points as well.

Spain did not have forces enough to attack Gibraltar by itself. Besides, another war would have weakened Franco's position in government. I do not think either that Franco would have allowed German troops to go through Spain to attack Gibraltar. Do you remember what happened when Napoléon I asked permission to pass through Spanish territory to attack Portugal in 1808? Napoléon invaded Spain without firing a shot. Franco and the Spanish people were not going to allow that to happen again.

Italy and Germany did not have the naval and air capacity to give a severe blow to the British at Gibraltar. The Royal Navy was too strong in the Mediterranean to be knocked out from there easily.

And let's say that Hitler decides to invade Spain because he sees that Franco is an ungrateful miserable cretin. The terrain in Spain is not adequate for armoured warfare. But so was Greece and Jugoslavia... Maybe Spain would have been smashed and Gibraltar attacked. But the terrain of Spain favours enormously partisan warfare and Hitler would have had as many problems as Napoléon had since 1808 to 1814.

The German had the Eastern Mediterranean under their control. The middle Mediterranean could have been theirs if Rommel would not have lacked of strategical vision and therefore the British would have had only a third of the Mediterranean... which was not very worth it without the other two thirds...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

These are good points - and also I think a significant factor was that Hitler really had no particular enthusiasm for the Mediterranean in 1939/40 ( or, in fact, later ) so Gibraltar did not form part of Germany's early planning.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Let us just say the Germans HAD taken Malta and Gibraltar, how would they successfully blockade the Strait of Gibraltar? To have an EFFECTIVE blockade I believe the Germans would have needed to use more of thier submarines, something a battered Kriegsmarine(not to mention the German economy) could not handle.

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Brett, Son of Ray and Kim, Who Loves Being Polish.
"Vini, Vidi, Vici" (I came, I saw I conquered!) - Ceasar

"Nuts" - Gen.McAufflie

Moreover, the Kriegsmarine would need capital ships and other vessels in the Mediterranean, of which they had none.

One of the main reasons Franco was unwilling to side with Hitler against the British was due to the fact that, thanks to the civil war, Spain relied on imports of grain from the US in order to feed the population, and who had a fleet capable of stopping these imports [img]smile.gif[/img]

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

As well as other members I can see the Gibraltar problem puzzles many.

I have so far thought the civil war caused enoguh problems to make other choices available, yet the debt to Hitler and Mussolini by Franco seems clear.Yet?

I think the Spaniards did not have the army available, but most of all, the battle of Spain was won by economic help. I have noticed some sources claim Churchill and the British government made some huge payments to the Spanish generals and Franco; This doesn´t surprise me as I think the Germans did this as well. But did both sides pay for the same thing...??

WEll, politics are cruel...

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Correct me if I am wrong-

In order to get through the Suez Canal, one would have to travel around Africa to get back to the back side of the Med, yes?

If, during the initial period of the war, Germany and Italy demolished Malta and Gilbraltar, thus blocking the British off, would that not have allowed for a more secure area for the Germans/Italians to build ships, thus strengthening their fleet?

From what little I know, the German Navy, aside from their very powerful U-Boats, did little during the war, as Hitler was afraid to engage the British and lose capital ships?

If the bulk of the German Navy was concentrated at the mouth of the Med, would that not have deterred the British?

I understand, now, about Spain not being much help, and why the issue was left as it was, thank you for the insights, I can sleep peacefully tonight [img]smile.gif[/img]

One aspect of Britain's 3 point strategy in 1940 was blockade. Equally, Germany sought to blockade Britain. If Germany diverted ships to the Med, they could not logically be available to serve elsewhere. In respect of building more ships, are we talking launches or warships?

Re Suez, Britain did send men and equipment around Africa and up to Egypt. The tanks Wavell was waiting for arrived via this route, Indian forces arrived direct to N.E. Africa, Australian, New Zealand, South African, Rhodesian, etc.

No.9

I have been thinking about another thing. By 1942 it seemed pretty plausible that the British could lose two thirds of the Mediterranean Sea. Let's remember that by 1942 the huge Royal Navy was not enough to handle with the strategical situation in the world. Not even the Royal Navy had the resources of defending its vital supply lines in the North Atlantic, when the battle there was reaching its peak. The war in the Mediterranean was critical. Keßelring was going to invade and smash Malta (he didn't because of Rommel's unwise decisions) and mainly, the whole British Empire in the far East was falling apart... Even the gigantic Royal Navy could not deal with the also gigantic Japanese Imperial Navy... So, the Royal Navy's resources were to its limits in 1942. The Japanese gave severe blows to it in 1942, so a little more and Great Britain would have been knocked out from the war in the far East. Keßelring could have got Malta out from the map if he wanted and Rommel would have been able to advance until Suez. Then a little more effort of admiral Dönitz in the Atlantic and Great Britain would have starved to death. They would be defeated and still holding Gibraltar. But as we see, it was not 'that' important...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Actually ,

I think there was more to do to get Malta because of one man:

Sir Keith Park


http://nzedge.com/heroes/park.html

When Park, now Air Marshal Park, arrived on the island he found scarce food supplies, insufficient planes, and petrol supplies dependent on tankers getting through without being attacked by German fighters. In April 1942 the island suffered merciless air attacks from the Luftwaffe and Italian bombers attempting to make the island "free for the storm" and open supply routes to Rommel’s army in North Africa. Instead of trying to defend the island, Park, in the best All Black tradition, determined to counter-attack. The fighters that were sent out to intercept the German attack inflicted such heavy losses on the incoming German planes that Malta was saved.

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I sent the figures some time ago but unfortunately could not find them with the search machine.

Anyway, when he arrived at Malta and was told that " Malta had been bombed alot and could take another one!" He said "Why?"

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Isn't it the case that the basis for a lot of Germany's lost opportunities in this area was due to Hitler's lack of understanding of/sympathy with the potential of German naval operations ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hitler lacked sympathy for all of his troops.

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Yours faithfully, Munken

"Veni, Vidi, Vici"= I came I saw, I conquered. - Julius Caesar.
"We shall never surrender"- Winston Churchill.
"United we are strong, united we will win"

Possibly true but what I meant was that strategically Hitler felt 'in tune' with land warfare ( his own background ), he was interested in the 'new technology' of aircraft but as for ships/ aircraft carriers, etc - very little interest or intellectual grasp of their potential strategic value...

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I don't have a very large interest of the Kriegsmarine. I read most about SS, Gestapo and the Wehrmacht.

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Yours faithfully, Munken

"Veni, Vidi, Vici"= I came I saw, I conquered. - Julius Caesar.
"We shall never surrender"- Winston Churchill.
"United we are strong, united we will win"

That's the point - so did Hitler !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Well, there was not much the Kriegsmarine could do in the Mediterranean. Maybe build shipyards in occupied Greece, Italy and France. But that was beyond Germany's capabilities.

And indeed Hitler said once: "On land I am a hero. In the sea I am a coward".

However, Malta was not smashed because of marshal Rommel's lack of strategical view. He thought, after the fall of Tobrouk that if he had the air support that was been used against Malta, he could take Alexandria, El Cairo and Suez by himself. Hitler listened to him. Then marshal Keßelring's airborne troops were not allowed to invade the island. When Rommel reached El Alamein in July 1942 half of his supplies were in the bottom of the Mediterranean because of Malta...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Fried, not sure if I understand your last sentance.......supplies at the bottom of the ocean ? due to what ?

As it is the small patrol boats....S-booten were very effective at night against the Allied shipping in the Med.

~E

I think that Rommel's supplies were sunk due to ULTRA...?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yes,Martin,

I think as well that Ultra gave away the details of places to sink the ships.That certainly gave the advantage..As a matter of fact after understanding how much Ultra gave away info, the fact that Germans won anything at all (especially from the beginning of 1942 when the information was getting to the Allied commanders quite fast) is surpr