The List - Page 2

Greenjacket · #26 (**permalink**) October 26th, 2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
Hi,
Hitler's biggest mistakes?
1) Assuming that Britain and France's reluctance to go to war was cowardice.

I agree here, good point. I would add that Hitler's misjudgment in underestimating the American potential for war and similarly overestimating that of his Japanese allies.

Eisenhower · #27 (**permalink**) October 26th, 2003, 10:21 PM

yes, the fact that he thought he could overlook the superiority of the RAF and American Air Force was a crucial mistake on his part. just think how he would have done things differently if he foresaw the PIR operations on D-day and operations as big as Market Garden.

Friedrich · #28 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 04:12 PM

First of all, welcome aboard, Gordon! Hope you enjoy yourself here!

Quote:

Hitler's biggest mistakes?
1) Assuming that Britain and France's reluctance to go to war was cowardice.
2) Not having an invasion plan for Britain until AFTER dunkirk.
3)Sending those feckless "saboteurs" to the US in 1942.

1) Good point.
2) Very good point, but there are two factors; complete lack of logistic capability and the fact that that stupid island is uninvadeable! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Eisenhower · #29 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 04:21 PM

yes, Heißen Sie willkommen zum Forum, Gordon! I'm going to have to study dundirk. I keep hearing people mention it and I feel stupid as to not knowing what their talking about.

The_Historian · #30 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 05:57 PM

Herr General,
Many thanks for the welcome!
Ike-sorry, should have said the fall of France, but British people tend to assume Dunkirk WAS the end of the campaign!
Regards,
Gordon

The_Historian · #31 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Knight,
I meant to post this earlier.
Your point about the US navy attacking U-Boats: weren't they ordered NOT

The_Historian · #32 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
Knight,
I meant to post this earlier.
Your point about the US navy attacking U-Boats: weren't they ordered NOT

sorry-blasted technology! As I was trying to say, weren't they ordered NOT to attack U-Boats until after one sank the USS Kearney in US territorial waters?
Regards,
Gordon

Friedrich · #33 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 07:54 PM

Quote:

should have said the fall of France, but British people tend to assume Dunkirk WAS the end of the campaign!

Actually that is the main reason why the Panzers were not used to crush the pocket. The battle was all but OVER!

KnightMove · #34 (**permalink**) October 28th, 2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The_Historian:
Knight,
I meant to post this earlier.
Your point about the US navy attacking U-Boats: weren't they ordered NOT

sorry-blasted technology! As I was trying to say, weren't they ordered NOT to attack U-Boats until after one sank the USS Kearney in US territorial waters?
Regards,
Gordon </font>[/quote]The US ships did not fire, but sometimes hassle U-boats and tell the English their position.

Friedrich · #35 (**permalink**) October 29th, 2003, 04:21 PM

We now have a thread to discuss Malta. I hadn't forgotten! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

MALTA

No.9 · #36 (**permalink**) October 30th, 2003, 06:11 AM

Oh, given up trying to invade Italy from the north eh!!!!

No.9

Friedrich · #37 (**permalink**) October 30th, 2003, 04:41 PM

Do you want to keep arguing about Cassino?!

OK!

No.9 · #38 (**permalink**) October 30th, 2003, 10:17 PM

Casino, what's to argue about? I'll put everything on 9 as usual and you spin the wheel?

No.9

Za Rodinu · #39 (**permalink**) October 31st, 2003, 09:42 PM

If I may be simplistic, the biggest mistake AH made was invading the USSR, period. All right, as KnightMove said elesewhere he was stopped one hour's drive away from Moscow, but the hard fact is 3.5 years later the Russians weren't stopping at the tram terminal one hour away from the Reichstag. Maybe if he started Op. Barbarossa one our earlier he would have pulled it through, then

but even that should be an effort for one front only, certainly not a multiplicity of open fronts.

Of course the UK was rather dormant at the time (even considering the Molotov-Ribbentropp in the bomb shelter, M. asking "If the war is going on so well why are we in this shelter" or words to that effect), but anyway the occupation of such a large european area and the need to keep an anti-invasion force on the Atlantic wall was a large drain on available resources.

AH should have made peace with the UK, certainly not declare war on the US, and not invade the USSR.

My 2 kopeks

The_Historian · #40 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Za Rodina:
If I may be simplistic, the biggest mistake AH made was invading the USSR, period. All right, as KnightMove said elesewhere he was stopped one hour's drive away from Moscow, but the hard fact is 3.5 years later the Russians weren't stopping at the tram terminal one hour away from the Reichstag. Maybe if he started Op. Barbarossa one our earlier he would have pulled it through, then but even that should be an effort for one front only, certainly not a multiplicity of open fronts.

Of course the UK was rather dormant at the time (even considering the Molotov-Ribbentropp in the bomb shelter, M. asking "If the war is going on so well why are we in this shelter" or words to that effect), but anyway the occupation of such a large european area and the need to keep an anti-invasion force on the Atlantic wall was a large drain on available resources.

AH should have made peace with the UK, certainly not declare war on the US, and not invade the USSR.

My 2 kopeks

The Uk was rather dormant at the time?! Wasn't there a little fracas in Africa with the Afrika Korps and the Italian army at the same time?
Regards,
Gordon

KnightMove · #41 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Za Rodina:
All right, as KnightMove said elesewhere he was stopped one hour's drive away from Moscow, but the hard fact is 3.5 years later the Russians weren't stopping at the tram terminal one hour away from the Reichstag. Maybe if he started Op. Barbarossa one our earlier he would have pulled it through, then but even that should be an effort for one front only, certainly not a multiplicity of open fronts.

I only said it in context with the mistakes of Stalin. If he would have lead his troops well, the Germans would never have had any chance to come close to Moscow, nor Stalingrad or the Caucasus. Your Great Patriotic war could have been won much earlier.

Considering this, indeed, the start of Barbarossa was an even bigger mistake. A series of mistakes of both Hitler and Stalin meant success for Hitler in 1941 and final victory for Stalin... but it took a lot of time.

Za Rodinu · #42 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KnightMove:
I only said it in context with the mistakes of Stalin. If he would have lead his troops well, the Germans would never have had any chance to come close to Moscow, nor Stalingrad or the Caucasus. Your Great Patriotic war could have been won much earlier.

Considering this, indeed, the start of Barbarossa was an even bigger mistake. A series of mistakes of both Hitler and Stalin meant success for Hitler in 1941 and final victory for Stalin... but it took a lot of time.

I agree! Please don't get me started on Stalin's mistakes, I wouldn't know where to start, much less where to end. That belongs in a different thread, a long one [img]smile.gif[/img]

If Stalin didn't have such an enourmous replacement pool, at the rate he took losses the Ostfront would have gone the whole way till Kamchatka. Even then there were problems showing already in 1944.

Both were making mistakes, but we can say Stalin had the greater leeway.

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
The Uk was rather dormant at the time?! Wasn't there a little fracas in Africa with the Afrika Korps and the Italian army at the same time?
Regards,
Gordon

Yes, I recognize that was quite a major effort for the UK and Commonwealth, but we should look at the scale of things.

Consider El Alamein (please correct my numbers at will). 10 divisions including 3 armoured with how many tanks, 500?, defeated 9 German and Italian divisions (at the end of a long tether) including 2 panzer divisions, inflicting 60,000 casualties.

At the same time elsewhere 17 Soviet armies containing 160 divisions, with 1,140,000 men and 3,500 tanks destroy or badly damage 5 axis armies, including 2 German ones (6th and 4th Pz), totalling 50 divisions, and removing from the Axis roster 600,000 names.

No wonder Stalin screamed all the time about a Second Front, the other efforts he saw were small comparing to what was happening in his frontyard.

Mind you, I'm not trying to denigrate the "other" (for momentary lack of a better term) efforts. Of course they were large efforts for all involved, and the cost of spilt blood is the same everywhere, but that was the way Stalin saw it.

Cheers,

[ 01. November 2003, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]

The_Historian · #43 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 10:31 AM

Fair point,
But let's not forget Britain was the only one to fight Hitler for SIX years, including the period when Stalin was his ally!
Regards,
Gordon

Za Rodinu · #44 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
Fair point,
But let's not forget Britain was the only one to fight Hitler for SIX years, including the period when Stalin was his ally!
Regards,
Gordon

Grudgingly I have to admit you're right, there [img]smile.gif[/img]

At the time GB was declaring war, Stalin was finishing his plans to invade Poland in concert with his ideological arch-enemy, while making all the possible efforts to keep him appeased for as long as he could stretch it.

Cheers,

The_Historian · #45 (**permalink**) November 1st, 2003, 01:17 PM

Za,
Yes. While no-one would denigrate the USSR's contribution to the final victory (how could they?), these facts need to be borne in mind to keep things balanced.
Regards,
Gordon

[ 01. November 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]