Anybody want to take on the task of listing all of Hitler's (or Nazi Germany's) mistakes? I have a few but I need some help.

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You are about to embark on the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months - Eisenhower

Well I'll name one which I think to be the biggest mistake of his, but I think one that was mandatory in his mind; a double front. He did not have the resources nor the knowledge of how well the Russian army would hold up thus fooling himself that he could take Russia before their winter came. He only killed more of his men in attacking so soon to the winter months. Germany, at the time, could not hold that double front and certainly failed to do so.

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

gratzi...a mistake also made by napoleon....i think ceasar...I'm not sure...

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You are about to embark on the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months - Eisenhower

Throw out the Jews, encluding top nuclear scientists like Einstein and Meitner.
Quote "Well then, let's do it a hundred years without physics and chemistry!"
Let the British soldiers escape at Dunkirk.
Bomb London instead of factories.
Take Kiew before Moscow.
Refuse to take Malta.
Declare war on the USA.
Standstill order, in Russia and North Africa.
Interdict a Stalingrad breakout.
Delay the assault at Kursk 1943.
Stop development of new weapons several times.
Get rid of Manstein.
Use the Me 262 as a bomber.


Hmmm, that's all crossing my mind for the moment...

Edit: I had forgotten the probably biggest - lack of armament production. See also below.

[ 01. November 2003, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: KnightMove ]

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Uhm, "mistakes"? From today's moral and information hindsight some of those abovementioned were "mistakes", but you can argue as a advocatis diabolis that any of the mistakes you mentioned had at least a good logic reason, or was no mistake at all, or would - if avoided - have caused even more fatal results (from a German POV, of course).

So, from your list (and quite frankly I don't want to discuss this again in depth, I just add my 2c in a glimpse) some points were no mistakes but the absolutely right thing to do AT THIS TIME in my personal books:

Take Kiew before Moscow.
- intact Soviet Southern front would be a lethal threat to AGC's advance. Securing AGC's overextended southern flank would have consumed most of their momentum, at least the entire 2nd and 4th Army.

Declare war on the USA.
- Delaying the (ineviatable) U.S. entry on the ETO by forcing them to divert thier efforts

Standstill order, in Russia [and North Africa].
- Saved AGC from destruction in Winter 41/42

Delay the assault at Kursk 1943.
- as shown in the real battle the tanks were cruical in the german efforts

Stop development of new weapons several times.
- this is a little bit to unclear, basically it's caused by changeds in German's strategy and ysou can't blame the Germans for not having a zoo of variois weapons

Bomb London instead of factories.
- Perfect way to force the RAF into attrition

Now admitably, this are a liitle bit on shaky ground:

Refuse to take Malta.
- with given ressources, one can't have both Rommel advancing and taking Malta, unless, of course you withdraw more and more from the decisive East front.


Get rid of Manstein.
- there was no more need for operational art at this time. War was lost anyway, all Hitler needed was a brutal "no retreat and die" General.

Sorry for making it so short. All I want ed to say that "mistake" is highly controversial and needs to be defined well as it has always two sides of a coin.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Andy definetly makes some good points but I have to agree with Knightmove on some of these things. Bomb London instead of factories may have been a way to force the RAF into attrition but it didn't do that well anyway being that they soon had air superiority. I think bombing of factories would definetly have been more wise and strategic; including ball-bearing factories. If Germany would have focused on destroying things that the RAF needed instead of trying to force the RAF into attrition then they might have had a much greater impact. Getting rid of Einstein and all the other Jewish geniuses in Germany was definetly one of the stupidest things, I mean come on. Knightmove also hits key with the Me-262 being used as a bomber, yes it was a dog of a plane and drank pretty much most of the fuel in the Third Reich in a 4 hour trip but making it into a bomber was just foolish. I understand that Hitler was trying to protect his cities and not thinking so much offensively in the air but holding what he could but if the Me 262's were used offensively then I believe they would have had a very effective impact on the bombing runs of the RAF and the Americans. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

AndyW:

"Declare war on the USA.
- Delaying the (ineviatable) U.S. entry on the ETO by forcing them to divert thier efforts"

What is ETO, European Theater O...? Anyway, this way he had to divert more of HIS OWN resources for homeland flak protection. It was pretty predictable that Roosevelt would give Europe priority. There was no margin for Roosevelt to declare war on Germany. Japan would have been a tough opponent to finally defeat without the A-bomb. It was a mistake, and it was obvious for most persons but Hitler.


"Standstill order, in Russia [and North Africa].
- Saved AGC from destruction in Winter 41/42"

... and caused complete destruction later. Hold your position to save the rest, ok. If the holding soldiers ARE the rest to be saved, it's terribly wrong.

"Delay the assault at Kursk 1943.
- as shown in the real battle the tanks were cruical in the german efforts"

The Panthers and Tigers did have way less impact than the time for Russian desense lines to be built up.

"Stop development of new weapons several times.
- this is a little bit to unclear, basically it's caused by changeds in German's strategy and ysou can't blame the Germans for not having a zoo of variois weapons"

Hitler CAN be blamed in some ways. After the fall of France, he ordered maximum production of current weapons, removing all priority from developping new ones.

"Bomb London instead of factories.
- Perfect way to force the RAF into attrition"

The real outcome was predictable.


"Refuse to take Malta.
- with given ressources, one can't have both Rommel advancing and taking Malta, unless, of course you withdraw more and more from the decisive East front."

Malta was easier than Kreta. Hitler didn't want to sacrifice any more paradroppers, but there was no better mission for them.


"Get rid of Manstein.
- there was no more need for operational art at this time. War was lost anyway, all Hitler needed was a brutal "no retreat and die" General."

As I said, a mistake. [img]tongue.gif[/img] This is not what I call a logical reason.


"Take Kiew before Moscow.
- intact Soviet Southern front would be a lethal threat to AGC's advance. Securing AGC's overextended southern flank would have consumed most of their momentum, at least the entire 2nd and 4th Army."

Ok, this is a point, but this was not the reason. Hitler took Kiew because of its industry. Whether your arguing is right, we will never know.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Just a couple things...

Not taking advantage properly of the hate of communism during operation Barbarossa but instead turning against himself ( partisans ).

The OKW-OKH system.

The low production figures of guns, tanks etc until 1943-44. ( Total war after Stalingrad )

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Agreed, I forgot about them, except - why the OKW-OKH system?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Actually, June 22nd 1941 was the only and best time to attack the Soviet Union. An attack earlier was IMPOSSIBLE. And the Balcans campaign soesn't have anything to do with it.

This is not the main point. The nazification of Germany meant the systematical assassination of science. The number university students dropped 38% by 1938 and the number of engineers dropped more than 50% by the same time. Germany was becoming brainless due to nazi cultural policies... The few ones which were left designed missiles, electric submarines and jets... Imagine what would had happen with those cultural policies and therefore, more brains?!

This happened because the British were too lucky. The Luftwaffe faced very bad weather and they couldn't smash the beachhead. (There's a very good Dunkirk thread over there... I'll bump it for you).

Actually were the factories the main targets in the cities... But what was to be bombed were the AIRFIELDS.

This is absolutely not true. Kiev must have been taken in order to achieve 'Barbarossa''s first goal: destroy the Red Army. Also, as Andy says, the flank had to be secured.

This was ROMMEL's fault. He persuaded Hitler that he could do all the work himself (and he later complained of lack of supplies...)

MISTAKE NUMBER ONE!

Fateful decision. It only worked ONCE in winter 1941-1942 (he actually learned from History and prevented another 1812 catastrophee) but at a huge cost. His subsequent decisions like that only annihilated the Wehrmacht.

Even if he had ordered this. The VI Army was not a mobile force.

There were not enough forces then. I think not to attack at all would have been better.

Many of these aspects weren't Hitler's decisions. Simply, German tacticians and industrialist did not have the vision or the capability to develop them earlier.

He got rid of him when it was all already messed up. The thing would have been give him complete independence and the supreme command of the Eastern Front in late 1942.

Tactical matter. Not necessarily decisive (we discussed it last year).

And I have another mistake, the greatest of them all, along the declaration of war on the USA; SWITCHING TO A FULL SCALE WAR ECONOMY UNTIL 1943.. If it would have been done in 1938...

Agreed.

Agreed.

True. Army Group 'Centre' was saved in winter 1941-1942, but the Wehrmacht was ANNIHILATED because of this order from 1942 onwards...

Tactical aspect, and therefore, not crucial...

Wrong. Rommel's fault. Read above.

Completely true, Kai!

Another thing about the OKW-OKH. Hitler's main mistake during 'Barbarossa' was giving the OKH three weeks to argue about the priorities. Those delaying in decisions are the decisive loss of time, not the Balcans and certainly not Kiev (this is well explained in general Von Blumentritt's memoirs).

I think he means having Hitler as commander in chief of the Army and having a bunch of mediocre generals in command of the armed forces (Keitel, Jodl...)

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

one thing..he shouldn't have attacked russia in the first place. he could have attacked later. he was on a 2 front war anyway, all he would have needed to do was do a few bombing raids in russia during the winter.

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You are about to embark on the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months - Eisenhower

How many German Flak was diverted to protect the homeland from U.S. Air attacks in 1941 and 1942?

First, prior to entering World War II, 62% percent of the American public believed that defeating Germany is more important than staying out of the war. (Gallup) Hitler might have read this, too.

Second, why exactly should it be “predictable” to Hitler that R. would give PRIORITY to Europe and puts LESS efforts into the actual war raging between the U.S. and Japan ONLY because Herr H. declared war on the U.S.? Is it so far away to come to the conclusion that IF Mr. Roosevelt think it's a good time to enter the war in Europe, Hitler would not have prevented this by not declaring war?

I say: Roosevelt’s “Europe first” strategy had not much to do with Hitler’s war declaration, as there was already an undeclared war raging on the Atlantic anyway (“shoot-on-sight” with a 62% public approval, agreement with Churchill on proceed with Plan Dog, German consulates closed, diplomats expelled, “America has been attacked“-speech etc.).

Are you suggesting that by declaring war, Hitler was dictating Roosevelt’s Grand strategy? (Declare war: U.S. shifts to Europe, declare not: U.S. does nothing in Europe)?

Japan was tough because the U.S. had to divert her forces into a two ocean war. A fleet cruising in the Atlantic, aircraft fighting over Europe, seaborne Armies doing amphibious landings in Africa and Europe are not of much help in fighting the Japanese.

As all say in their post-war memoirs. Interesting enough, in Dec. 1941 there was quite a silence on this matter within the military elite, see f.ex. Halder’s diary. The fact the his Führer declared war on the U.S. didn’t really interested him that much. AFAIK the only noteworthy reaction came from the Kriegsmarine planning staff, asking for more ships.

I agree that with hindsight, the later standstill orders in Russia and at Alamein were in many times a mistake.

I have to admit, I’m far to unfamiliar with the Kursk-battle, so I take your word on this.


Maybe my answer was unclear, I tried to say that the German equipment / weapon park was terrible ineffective. I forgot the number of how many different types of motorized vehicles the Germans had, it’s ridiculous high. Panther, Tiger II, very good tanks, formidable tanks if you want, but worth the cost and industrial input? German war industry was terribly unproductive.

As for after France: Hitler didn’t thought of invading the USSR soon by this time “There is nothing to win for the Heer in the near future” he said to Halder after it became clear that France is finished in June 1940. Consequentially he abandoned divisions and stopped much developing and production to the benefit of consumption goods. Later in that month (?), with GB not surrendering, he did the right thing and ordered to build/develop planes, ships, u-boats, strategic bombers i.e. things you need to fight Britain. Now only months later (July/August 1940) he decided to invade the USSR in 1941. Full stop, 180 degree turn, now he needed men, tanks all that stuff. In July 1941,when everything went par excellance he again turned towards an anti-GB/U.S. weapon program, just to see “Barbarossa” fu**ng up in November 1941 with the need to equip the Army for a second year of fighting against the Russkies etc...

I agree that Hitler had no grand “war plan”, so consequentially he had no long-termed armament program, and thus Germany was working with ad hoc, short to mid-term armament programs, changing continuously.

The German AF strategy of the BoB was: destroy the RAF by attrition. If it was so predictable (again: ) AT THIS TIME that this strategy would fail, you will have to blame almost the entire Luftwaffe general staff, planning staff and all other strategist “thinkers” for being a bunch of morons.


Again, my point was: You can’t have fighting Malta AND Rommel advancing at the same time. Logistical restrains. Additionally, Malta was a real headache for the German planners.

???

Again, if I manage a racing team; I need a good race car driver. If I’m running out of funds I might have to change my business from racing to farming. I will have to sell the race car to buy a tractor, and I will have to fire the good race car driver and hire a good tractor driver.


Do you have any sources to supporting that Hitler went for Kiev because of the industry there?

“The aim of the next operations must be to prevent any further sizeable enemy forces from withdrawing into the depths of Russia, and to wipe them out.“ Directive No. 33 July 19,1941

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

wow...andyw. thanks for addressing all those. thanks or all the inputs! more is welcome...

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You are about to embark on the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months - Eisenhower

Wow, this is really spooky. That's all left of Friedrichs long post where I disagree on. And I didn't find any disagreement from him on my post either!

Having our fierce discussions a year or so well back in mind, I wonder who changed his POV more: You or me?

As for the "total war" gearing in 1938: No, it was no "total war" program, it was only some levels beyond on "blitzkrieg" or "short campaign", but that was more than sufficient until June 1941 to kill off Poland and France. GB wasn't thought to be a enemy anyway, and as they stood firm, voila!, mucho problemo!

With the first real Blitzkrieg-campaign failing in late Fall of 1941, H. realized that this is going to be a long war, so he changed to "total war", but in not being able to kill off the SU in 1942, anything was in vain anyway...

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

You lost me a long time ago in your last response. It's all good.

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You are about to embark on the great crusade towards which we have striven these many months - Eisenhower

AndyW:

"Again, if I manage a racing team; I need a good race car driver. If I’m running out of funds I might have to change my business from racing to farming. I will have to sell the race car to buy a tractor, and I will have to fire the good race car driver and hire a good tractor driver."

It was Hitler's delusion that Manstein was excellent in offensives, but that he would spoil it in defense. Manstein was the man to save tough conditions with inferior armies. So it was a mistake, without a logical reason.


"Japan was tough because the U.S. had to divert her forces into a two ocean war. A fleet cruising in the Atlantic, aircraft fighting over Europe, seaborne Armies doing amphibious landings in Africa and Europe are not of much help in fighting the Japanese."

Maybe the later "isle hopping" would have succeeded much faster, but ultimate victory against Japanese main land would have been very lossy, as it was feared to become in 1945.

Further, you haven't thought about alternatives between "declaring war on the USA" and "do nothing against them" yet. The US navy had committed many provokations against German ships already and helped the British. Actually Captains were desparate that Hitler interdicted them to strike back. Guess that from now on Hitler would have entitled German ships to "fire at will" when provoked.
This would have caused a tough situation for Roosevelt - there would have been many objections in the USA to start a 2-front war. So EITHER the US navy will reinforce in the Atlantic as it actually did and fight the Germans without formal declaration of war; or they will stop embroiling the Germans, rather leaving the Atlantic to fight the Japanese. This would have meant much longer great time for the German U-boats to sink British supply, much less hostile aircraft bombing German cities...

Compare the respective freedom of action both sides won by the declaration of war!


About Kiew: I know a dialogue between Hitler and Guderian, but now I will do further research before further comments.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Friedrich H: "This was ROMMEL's fault. He persuaded Hitler that he could do all the work himself (and he later complained of lack of supplies...)"

Your blaming of Rommel is ABSOLUTELY wrong!

After the fall of Tobruk, Rommel faced a difficult situation:

Either wait until Malta is taken, which means that the Brithish will escape, reorganize and reinforce;
or continue attacking with the risk of Malta in his back.

Rommel chose as he was used to... the same way he had achieved his victories. This time he was wrong, but this is not much to blame him for. He had captured much booty in Tobruk; enough for a push to the Nile. In fact, this was right.

It was Hitler personally who interdicted a possible invasion of Malta again and again. General Student prepared "Hercules". At the beginning of June, he flew to the Führer headquarters in Rastenburg, just to report the stage of preparations. Hitler agreed that a bridgehead might be gettable, but suddenly he shouted: "What then? I assure you, the British fleets in Gibraltar and Alexandira will put out immediately. Then have a look what the Italians do! With the first radio message incoming, they run to their ports in Sicily, the warships as well as the transporters. And then you and your paradroppers sit helpless on the Island!" And he called the enterprise off.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Ha! Remember there's a very thin line between hatred and love! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] (After many discussions in this forums with other 'harsh' people I've tended to realise that Andy's harshness is by far, the best...) [img]tongue.gif[/img]