makes of ww2 british planes that not even 1 remains - Page 2

The_Historian · #26 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Hi,
The whole idea of lend-lease was that we got US aid in return for non-strategic bases we no longer needed. Considering no actual cash changed hands, that's the lamest excuse I've heard in a long time!

Regards,
Gordon

Martin Bull · #27 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 07:06 AM

With apologies for going way off WWII, more can be read about TSR-2 at : -

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/TSR2.htm

The subject still causes heated debate to this day. I'll just say two dreaded words : -

LABOUR GOVERNMENT ! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

TA152 · #28 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 07:26 AM

Thanks again Martin for posting more information on the great TSR. I read a magizane article on the plane years ago but I don't recall the Mountbatten connection.

If I recall right did'nt the IRA blow him up some years ago ?

The_Historian · #29 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 11:14 AM

Ta,
August 1979, on his yacht off the Irish coast. I'd just visited his stately pile at Broadlands about a week before.
Regards,
Gordon

Hoppy · #30 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2003, 06:07 PM

In reply to the Historian, I think you will find that Lend-lease was not a 'swap' at all.
The name suggests that it was, but even a small bit of research will show you that we were actually running a 'tab'. Obviously, cold, hard cash did not change hands, but non the less, we 'owed' the USA.
Having taken part in some reseach, about 4 years ago, for the BBC, i was able to overview some documents concerning TSR-2. It was there in black and white. The programme was also put onto VHS.
TSR-2 WAS cancelled due to pressure from the U.S.
These my friend are facts. What else has gone on that we DONT know about ?

The_Historian · #31 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 01:33 AM

Hoppy,
You did research for the BBC?!THAT explains a lot.......

Regards,
Gordon

[ 12. November 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

BratwurstDimSum · #32 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hatch:
duxford is a great place to go as long as you dont take the missus cause all you get is cmon , cmon , hurry up !!!!!!!!

Respect hatch, not all missuses are like that. Mine refused to leave Duxford when she saw her favourite 2 planes, the Av8b Harrier and the Tornado. Our living room has posters and models of both and people keep thinking they're mine!

BratwurstDimSum · #33 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 01:52 PM

Back to the NON political debate we're having...

One of the caretakers at Duxford at the time told me this great story about the TSR, the only reason why we have the one at duxford was because some guy working at the place where they were being stored ready for the breakers "nicked" it and hit it in a paddock somewhere. It was found after some years (and the whole "No Nukes" debate had blown over), taken to Duxford and stored.

Can this be true? Surely someone must have noticed they were missing a cruise missle carrying warplane?!!!

One other thing, Martin, I thought the TSR 2 was cancelled on Thatcher's orders? Again this is what the curator said at Duxford, presumably he knows better?

Oops!! Did I mention politics

Hoppy · #34 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 06:27 PM

The research was carried out FOR the BBC, through a third party company. As i mentioned, we were given access to certain documents, which had been de-classified. Unfortunately, the documents which i believe hold the most interesting facts, are still restricted.
The BBC, in their great wisdom, chose to 'edit' certain bits of the programme, which did no justice to the overall scheme. The part for which the research was done was on the strained relationship, post war, between Britain and the USA. TSR-2 being an example of Great Britain trying to 'smooth' things over.
In the end, it helped neither the US, or ourselves.
As this is not really a WW2 piece, if anyone wishes to see some of the work that was uncovered while reseaching TSR-2, please feel free to pm me.

[ 13. November 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Hoppy ]

Martin Bull · #35 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 06:49 PM

What drugs are they on at Duxford ?

When TSR-2 was cancelled, Maggie Thatcher was a humble MP for Finchley and the Conservatives were in opposition.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hoppy · #36 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 07:05 PM

Unfortunately, a comment to a visitor such as that, or being fed the wrong info can have dramatic results !!! you would have thought that the IWM would teach its employees a bit of history !!

The_Historian · #37 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 07:37 PM

hmmm.......

Hoppy · #38 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 09:04 PM

Back onto a WW2 subject, mentioned earlier, The Lend-Lease agreement between Great Britain and the USA was a lifeline to the people of Britain.
In return for, amongst other things, opening the 'British Imperial Preferance System' which was basically a closed market for trade to commonwealth countries, America would supply ships and munitions. Also, Franklin.D. Roosevelt insisted on Britain selling the US some of its overseas assets, as well as shipping its Gold reserve to America for 'safe keeping'.
He also insisted onhaving a 99 year lease on 6 strategic bases in England.
The final debt at the end of WW2 was $30 Billion Dollars. This was finally 'paid off' in the mid-1990's. The agreed cost to be paid was 2% per annum.
Without the Lend-Lease agreement, Britain would probably not have seen the end of 1943.

The_Historian · #39 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 10:57 PM

And the source for this was?......

Hoppy · #40 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Historian:
And the source for this was?......

Erm... Imperial War Museum, countless webites, books...HISTORICAL FACT....
It doesn't take much effort to do a little research yourself... You may even learn something

The_Historian · #41 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:17 PM

Hoppy,

Actually, I did it in Economic & Social History at University last year.
Still would like to know your "sources" to compare them with what I studied.
Regards,
Gordon

Hoppy · #42 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:31 PM

In which case, you would know the facts.
The sources i have used over the years are as stated previously. The Lend-lease situation is by no means a secret. In all the years that i have researched various warfare subjects (mainly aviation) I have been very lucky to have had access to various files, books, publications etc.
9 times out of 10, if you approach various establishments such as the IWM, they are only too willing to help. the material that they have available is astounding. its a pity much more cannot be displayed due to a lack of space.
So, all im saying is, it may come as a surprise to you about the L-L situation, but theres nothing 'underhand' about it, okay, it may seem a little ruthless but so were the times. The one thing i have learned is always keep an open mind, that way you can never stop learning.
If it would be of any help to you, i would be only too happy to direct you to further sources and areas of information.

Hoppy

The_Historian · #43 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:34 PM

Hoppy,
Considering what you said was the complete OPPOSITE of what we were taught last year, I don't have much faith in your "sources"!
Anyway, this is damn all to do with the topic.
Gordon

Hoppy · #44 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Well, in which case it is not YOUR fault if that is what you have been taught. However, i consider the Imperial War Museum to be a Fairly good source in matters of WW2...

If i can contact them tomorrow, i will try and get them to e-mail me some material.
A simple web-search on L-L debt will bring up some connections.
Its a shame that you are being taught and not being given the facts. As i said earlier, its no secret, just not shouted about.

The_Historian · #45 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:47 PM

I knew the facts BEFORE I went to uni, actually.
Just got them confirmed.
Gordon

Hoppy · #46 (**permalink**) November 13th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Well, in which case you have obviously made up your mind. good luck !

Hoppy · #47 (**permalink**) November 14th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Anyway, back to reality..

I dont think that there are any twin engine whirlwinds left either.
Or Brigands...