November 22, 2003
Hi
I am looking for information with regard to my cousin's service in the RAF and Special Operations Executive (SOE), in France 1940-45.
Is there an SOE sub-forum?
S. Stone - Ontario, Canada

Hello Canada

I did a quick search and came up with this RAF/ SOE site.......

http://www.tarrant-rushton.ndirect.c...0Executive.htm

There are loads of other sites listed using MSN search engine. Hope the one above may assist a bit.

Regards Graham.

__________________
Major General Gales‘ Special Order of the Day dated 4 June 1944 was as follows: "My final words to you are to see to it that what you gain by stealth you hold with guts. In the words of a great Captain, Pray to God and keep your powder dry. God bless you. GO TO IT".

November 22, 2003
Hi Graham:
Thanks for sending the link - very interesting site. I have visited dozens of RAF/SOE sites but somehow missed that one.
With thanks,
Shirley

Shirley,

I assume that you have considered the public records office in Glasgow. The address is here should you require it.....

Army Personnel Centre
Historic Disclosures
Mailpoint 400
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow
G2 8EX

I think you write to them first and then they send you some forms to complete....Small admin sum of about £25.00 is required with the returned completed forms and they will then send you everything that the UK Government has on your relatives postings and military history....

That's how I think it works anyway as I am only on stage one of the same process myself.

Best wishes in your search. [img]smile.gif[/img]

regards Graham

PS A search may find you an e-mail addy to speed things up a bit

[ 22. November 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: OX and BUCKS Light Infrantry ]

__________________
Major General Gales‘ Special Order of the Day dated 4 June 1944 was as follows: "My final words to you are to see to it that what you gain by stealth you hold with guts. In the words of a great Captain, Pray to God and keep your powder dry. God bless you. GO TO IT".

November 22, 2003
Hi Graham:
Thanks so much for sending the address.
I am, however, a bit confused. As my cousin was in the RAF/SOE, would the Army Personnel Centre be the correct place to write? His RAF records (SOE records not included!)were obtained (after completing a form and sending the fee), by his son, from the following address:
Officers Records,
Bldg 248A, PMA,
RAF Innsworth,
Gloucester, GL3 1EZ.
Perhaps this address will be helpful to you or other posters to the forum.
Good luck with your research.
Shirley

November 22, 2003
Hi
I just found a link to the PRO at Kew, giving information about declassified SOE information:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/may2003/soe_list.htm

Hope you see this, Graham.
Cheers
Shirley [img]smile.gif[/img]

Shirley,

That is one excellent link

Reading through those names and what became of the people shows the sacrifice they were willing to make on 'our' behalf.

They were all truly remarkable people.

I mentioned the Glasgow office as I thought that SOE was 'Army driven' I think I must have been watching too many films

Regards Graham.

__________________
Major General Gales‘ Special Order of the Day dated 4 June 1944 was as follows: "My final words to you are to see to it that what you gain by stealth you hold with guts. In the words of a great Captain, Pray to God and keep your powder dry. God bless you. GO TO IT".

November 23, 2003
Hi Graham:
I struck 'pay dirt' today - now have the file number for the SOE personnel file I need.
The 'Geneology Gods' are smiling down on me!
Good Luck with your searches,
Shirley

Before anyone goes dashing off their £25 in the expectation of receiving a ponderous dossier on their W.W.II next of kin, firstly you are required to be ‘next-of-kin’ and secondly, instead of a dossier, all you will get at best is a sheet of paper with one small paragraph with name, date and unit of joining, date of any significant changed to another unit (i.e. something major like infantry to artillery), date of death or demob and any medal entitlement, maybe certain promotions – that’s about, it for £25.

Better to write to any regimental association or museum if any exist for their unit. PRO records at Kew are excellent, but, (a) you need to go in person and qualify to register, and (b) you need a great deal of time to wade through ponderous files in the hopes that somewhere therein will be the information you’re looking for. The files themselves are by no means comprehensively indexed and you have absolutely no means of knowing where your relevant document has been filed. Which file a document ended up in depended on the filing clerk. (speaking from experience over a number of years).

No.9

November 23, 2003
Hi No 9!
Thanks for the advice. I have his RAF service records - not worth the money, as you said.
I am hoping the SOE information at KEW will be better - one can only hope! Those records are classed as "Public", unlike the RAF records.
You are correct about contacting a regimental museum as I received a complete service record for my husband's grandfather - 21-years with the 1st Royal Bershire Regiment. Their museum is in Salisbury - website is brilliant: http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/main.php3
and very helpful staff.
Shirley

Glad you've had some success Shirely. What RAF squadron was you cousin with?

No.9

November 23, 2003
Hi No 9
Very good question!
His son, who lives in England, posted the RAF details last Wednesday.
When I receive them, I shall let you know the squadron.
Cheers
Shirley

Thank you Shirley. I have a number of references for the RAF working with the SOE. I wouldn't like to suggest anything without knowing the squadron as some books are expensive.

No.9

No 9,

Mmmmmmmmm, that seems like good advice..... [img]smile.gif[/img]

In view of what you have posted here I will wait to hear from Ox and Bucks museum before I reply to Glasgow. As you say not worth £25.00 for info I may already have.
The Ox and Bucks guy, a Mr Stanley said they may ask for a donation to the museum once they have found whatever they can. (about£15)
I have got around the next of kin thing as my relatives wife is still very much with us and she is quite keen to find out herself.

Thanks for the Glasgow info.

Regards Graham.

__________________
Major General Gales‘ Special Order of the Day dated 4 June 1944 was as follows: "My final words to you are to see to it that what you gain by stealth you hold with guts. In the words of a great Captain, Pray to God and keep your powder dry. God bless you. GO TO IT".

Welcome to the forums, Shirley! Hope you enjoy yourself here (see you're already doing that!) You came to the right place!

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Museums can be very helpful Ox, unfortunately they do vary – but doesn’t everything? In the past I’ve had great assistance from the Queens and the Argyle’s, but very little of value from the Suffolk’s or the Royal Marines (hep, two, three, four) and zilch from the RAMC. At least when you’re dealing with a regimental museum or association you know you are far more likely to get a positive response to a detailed enquiry than if you address an all forces source.

Sometimes there exists a regimental newsletter or perhaps even a magazine. Quite often they are not unwilling to publish requests in there for anyone who served with the person in question. As always, give as much accurate information as possible as memories may need to be jogged, and while someone may not have known the individual they may recognise certain actions or movements and be able to comment on these.

Museums and associations may be able to advise on useful books, and sometimes may even have sponsored private publications.

If they don’t ask for a fee I would always send them something as everyone struggles for funds nowadays and where W.W.II history is concerned, officialdom talks the talk but they don’t walk the walk. If there is a formal fee, it’s worth asking if this is for non associates only. If this is the case and such enquiries are handled free for associates, you may find the cost of becoming an associate for a year works out better?

No.9

November 24, 2003
Hi No. 9!
You have been offering some very good advice in the last 2-3 days. I hope the other members of the forum are taking notes (I am).
Will let you know about the squadron as soon as the news hits my desk.
Cheers
Shirley

Wo, you flatter me Shirley!

The exchange and sharing of knowledge and experience is quite good in this forum. We can’t cover everything, but there’s a lot of folk here who are very good on their subjects and if they can help they will.

No.9

November 25, 2003
Hi NO 9
Today I received the RAF records - not a lot of information - just as you predicted. (and not very clear copies).
Enlisted July 5, 1940. July 6, 1940: No. 2 R.C., Cardington - August 10, 1940 to 7 R.C. On August 30, 1940 he went into the 905 Squadron (reason: HH)and left there 16 months later, on December 12, 1941, when he went to A.M. Unit, London (whatever that was) Reason: looks like a G??
Then it indicates he was discharged on April 10, 1942.
MRD Foot's book indicates he was parachuted over Tours, France, on June 27, 1942 and was taken out and went back to France in March 1943, and spent the rest of the war on training and on liaison between F and RF sections.
The public records for the RAF indicate he relinquished his commission on November 1, 1945.
That's the latest installment.
Cheers
Shirley

Thank you Shirley, from what you’ve posted I take it he was first with the air force and then with the SOE, as opposed to being with an RAF unit that supported the SOE? Can I ask what is your substantiation that he was in the SOE and which of Foot’s books are you referring to?

No.9

ps. 'AM' may refer to Air Ministry?

November 25, 2003
Hi
Big error and I am sorry. That should have read that he returned to ENGLAND in March 1943.
M R D Foot - "SOE - The Special Operations Executive - France 1940-45 - first edition, page 196. Also named in Nigel West's book, "Secret War: The story of SOE" - page 111 in hardcover, page 140 in paperback.
Kew has Special Operations Executive Personnel File 1939-1946, for him, with a file number, indicating the records are public. I think I may have someone in England who will be able to visit Kew for me and check this out.
Cheers
Shirley
PS - Air Ministry - A.M. - makes sense to me!

November 25, 2003
Forgot to mention he was awarded the Croix de Guerre - year unknown, but the RAF records give an authority for it: A 477506/42/PTI (not sure about the PTI - copy is faded but the other numbers are right). My next plan is to find out why it was awarded to him.
Shirley

Shirley,

So glad that your research is progressing well.

You are correct in saying that No 9 gives good advice [img]smile.gif[/img] (Thanks for the info 9)

I have only just found this web site and the information that other members have is fantastic.
Without them I would still be flapping about 'getting nowhere fast'
Regards Graham

__________________
Major General Gales‘ Special Order of the Day dated 4 June 1944 was as follows: "My final words to you are to see to it that what you gain by stealth you hold with guts. In the words of a great Captain, Pray to God and keep your powder dry. God bless you. GO TO IT".

November 26, 2003
I just found the website this month and it is fantastic. Special thanks to No. 9, whoever you are! Your advise has been so very helpful.
More information today about other books that make mention of my cousin:
F Section SOE by Marcel Ruby
Nancy Wake by Russell Braddon
Inside SOE by Cookridge
Off to the library!!!!!
Shirley

Ahem………….yes, well, thank you………just a cog trying to help, glad it’s useful.

Shirley, I can’t add any book titles as you already probably have most specifics. However, if you’ve been centring your search on your cousin’s name, as he appears to have been charged with setting up Monkeypuzzle, I would suggest concentrating on that.

I don’t know too much about Monkeypuzzle except that it was one of the networks I believe designed for co-ordination and communications. Raymond, as it’s head, probably would have been under deep cover as a member of the community in/around Tours. From his upbringing possibly in the hotel business? Rather than conduct activities such as sabotage, I would say his role was to liase with and recruit friendly French to set-up safehouse, stores, conduits, informants, and of course intelligence – a classic underground civilian network. The network may have been centred in Tours but I believe would have extended far outside this area.

Raymond would have had contact with the French offensive resistance, but I don’t think his station would have had much if anything to do with direct offence. Possibly they had some tie with MI9 for trafficking escapees, but I can find no reference to Monkeypuzzle by MI9 – this of course proves nothing either way. His station was closed before any of the Jedburgh assault teams were deployed (or SAS) so there is no connection there. Tours was a busy movement centre so a good choice for implanting a ‘stranger’ such as himself. Another activity preceding his arrival was Jewish deportation, but I don’t see any useful connection here?

Anyway, the above is just speculation and for sure getting sight of his personal file from the PRO will be invaluable. I would also suggest searching for files on Monkeypuzzle as surely what relates to that relates to him?

No.9

If you'd like to add to your SOE collection, if you don't already have them, perhaps consider 'Camp X' by Stafford (Camp X was the agents trainging camp in Canada), and 'Baker Street Irregulars' by Sweet-Escott.