Many people have asked 'why did Germany fight on in the west, why did they not transfer all forces to the east to fend off the Russians?' I recently read 'The Last Battle' by Cornelius Ryan, he has a very interesting answer to the question. In late 1944 the Germans captured a copy of the Allied plans for 'Operation Eclipse', the operational blueprint for the occupation of Germany after the war. The importance of this document was simple, first off they knew that no matter how hard they fought in the wast, the Russians would eventually control a huge swathe of Germany.

Secondly it answered a question that had been on the mind of many amongst the German staff for a long time, since the Russians now held most of central Europe, did the 'unconditional surrender' demand still stand? Clearly it did!

Essentially then it is clear that part of the reason for the German refusal to quit was simply that they knew that no matter what happened they were going to be invaded by the Russians and that they could not make conditions, there was nothing to do but fight on on all fronts.

So guys, any opinions?

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

What was their saying?

Fight the Americans and British to the last bullet and surrender.

Fight the Russians to the last bullet and use it on yourself.

There was no way Germany could come to terms with the Soviet Union. They were in too deep thanks to the Furher.

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Remember 12/7/41
6/6/44
9/11/01

Why did the Germans fight in the West? Because the British and French declared war on them!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That is, of course, forgetting the little detail that Germany broke threaties, rearmed and invaded many sovereign countries... but I guess that's not important... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Germany fought everywhere she did because of Hitler. Germany shouldn't be defeated by the snobish British, the American peasants nor the Soviet Barbarians... All was caused by Hitler's and most important, German megalomania, which had been forming since the Ancient Age...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Sorry, not quite what I meant, I was getting at the reasons why Germany continued to fight in the west rather than allowing the Allies to take more of Germany to save it from the Russians.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Because of Adolf Hitler.

A good example is the whole Ardennes offensive. The OKH was able enough to gather a considerably strong and experienced large force after all the débâcles of 1944. Instead of using it as a mobile defense against the Red Army, Hitler insisted in having an offensive and achieving a much-needed victory, which of course, was easier against the weakest enemy...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Why? Because Hitler was a political genius that everyone also took for tactical and military genius. Good thing for most of the world he only SEEMED to be a tactical and military genius. I dunno, maybe if he had focused on Russia and not Africa and France right away they could have won Russia more quickly. Then it would have been possible within 10 years to move into France and Africa.

Though, I wonder how willing the USA, Britain, and France would have been to help Russia defeat Germany if France was never invaded?

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-BKB

Well the Germans did not exactely had the opinion that giving away their homecountry to the "Western" ENEMIES would exactely save them from the Russian ENEMY.

Morgenthau and "terror" bombing were as good motivations for the average soldier to continue fighting on the West as raping Russian soldiers were in the East.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

yea but the germans HATED the russians more than anyone else because they knew that the russians would destroy germany such as the germans had done since their occupation, but the germans weren't the only ones who hated the russians, why do you think that patton said that we should rearm the germans and take on the russians! if i was hitler i would've given up to the Allies on the west and battled the russians, the germans raped, pillaged, destroyed, and murdered... what do you think the barbarian russians were going to do to the germans, but i dont know what the hell hitler was thinking in the 1st place i mean,it's a country the size of the state of Wisconsin for chirst sake! they're going to defeat the world? lol hitler was a fruit cake [img]smile.gif[/img]

That is exactly my point, the Germans knew that they could NOT do this because sure, they could have held the Russians off in the east, they would still have been beaten and even if they managed to delay things for a LONG time (aint gonna happen btw) the allies would have come in from the west, beaten the Germans, linked with the Russians and divided up Germany as per Operation Eclipse.

So no, wouldnt work duce

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

They were just following orders?

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If dogs don't go to heaven, I'd like to go where they go.

how do you figure that it wouldnt work? the germans would have faired much better surrendering berlin to the west than the russians, the berlin wall, and cold war, started after WWII, the wall was built because the Russians suddenly suspected that every one was against them so they had to "protect" them selfs, and what the russians did after the war wasn't "occupation" it was a full fledged invasion, i dont care if the russians were afraid of the germans or not, it was an invasion to make them more or less, feel "superior".

[ 18. December 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

Sebastian Haffner, a famous German journalist, contemporary witness, and author of some elaborate books on the topic, states two theories what could have been a possible motive for Hitler:

* Hitler deemed the Western powers to expect German resistance concentrate on Russia, which would have meant easy orey for them. By violent resistance he wanted to force them to find an agreement with Germany, or to see Russia taking more territory than they had expected and agreed.

* Hitler's annihilation mania had already turned against his own people, the Germans. He could not forgive them to have lost his glorious war. While all good men were already KIA, only scum was left over. So he wanted to send as many as possible to death, and as many of the rest to be under bloody Soviet control.

Other theories:

* Hitler hated Stalin, but he somewhat learned to respect him for being the better of the two, while his hatred on Churchill and Roosevelt had grown. So he begrudged Stalin less and rather tried to kick the Westerners as much as he could.

* Who needs rational explanations??? Hitler was brainsick, his motivations were not comprehensible, it was just another madness.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Its an interesting What If had Germany decided to surrender unconditionally in October or November 1944 in a manner similar to the WW1 armistice. Would Germany have been sliced up by the allies as it was during the post war period? Hitler kept fighting as he was hoping for a last minute miracle as happened with Frederick the Great during the seven years war.

SEE HITLER WAS A FRUITCAKE like i said [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, in this forums we try to make FACTS matter, no personal opinions...

This is utterly segregating and racist, and of course, completely false, unfounded and an unwise thing to say. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

Russia has managed to become the first European and world power more than once. I suppose that isn't possible with a bunch of ignorant peasants only superior to their cattle...

[ 18. December 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Obviously this posting got deleted, who was the author?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

oh no it's not deleted it's still there... and i'm sorry if i offended u but i do not take the russians of WWII very seriously. oh and also maybe the russians would have had better luck coming up with their own ideas instead of copying... MP44 - AK-47 Panzerfaust - RPG they also copied the B29, anyone else care to join in? i seam to have had a brain fart... i use to have a list of what they copied and now i forgot it.... i'll be back! oh and by the way as defined an open forum IS a matter of ones opinion and almost anything can be said in it [img]tongue.gif[/img] and if i wanted to be racist i would've said that i was going to dress up in my mama's white bed clothes and lynche the russians! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 17. December 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: 5-0-duce ]

5-0-duce: Friedrich is correct. Your comments regarding Russians are - at a minimum - disrespectful to Russian veterans and to Russian members of the Forums. Haven't you read the WW2 Forums Etiquette?

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• "As a WWII Forums Member, you are expected to read and be familiar with the Forums 'Etiquette'..."</font>
• "Posts may not contain ... -Hate speech (racism, sexism, etc.)"</font>
• "General respect for others. ... You do not have the right to insult or attack someone for any reason. ..."</font>
• "Respect for Veterans: This is the most strictly protected rule of this site. Veterans of both sides of the Second World War often visit these forums, when they do, they must be treated with the utmost respect and dignity. ..."</font>

[ 18. December 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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This information has been posted for non-commercial, educational, and research purposes.
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"The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here." - Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 19, 1863
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"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past." - William Faulkner

Well, neither did Hitler and what happened to him?

Anyway, we do have the etiquette and that is how we expect people to behave in our Forums. Any racist comments are and will be deleted.

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Are you aware that it were the Russians to create the most influental tank of WW2, the T-34 (as well for the outcome of the war, as for the further development of tanks)? The slant design, the Christie suspension, this served as a role model for most later tanks. Panther and Tiger would not have existed without the T-34 as an antetype.

Are you aware that the Russians had the major part in defeating Germany?

duce, some of your postings seemed to be pretty competent, but now you shot yourself in the foot, from every point of view.

Not even being a juvenile is an adequate apology. You REALLY should take care of your further statements.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Well, neither did Hitler and what happened to him?

</font>[/quote]lol. funniest thing ive heard today.

geez anyone with idiots knowlege of ww2 knows that it was the soviet union that did the lionshare of defeating germany. to say the the SU, which inflicted 75 percent of all german casualties in the entire war, was not to be taken seriously or whatever is a joke.

[ 18. December 2003, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Kaiser Heer ]

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"The bayonet has always been the weapon of the brave and the chief tool of victory"
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Welcome in this forum, Kaiser Heer!

Right from the start a few questions, as your 75% figure is very interesting: What's your source? Does this include civilian losses, or military only? Do you know the percentages for the other nations invloved?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?