Italy before D-Day....

tolinrome · #1 (**permalink**) January 8th, 2004, 07:56 AM

Hi all,

This is my first post and I have a thought that maybe someone can explain to me better.

1. Now that I'm living in Italy I've been visiting alot of the WWII battle sites. I always thought and heard that DDay was the beginning of the liberation of Europe, but then I read that Sicily and Rome were liberated before DDAY. Maybe it was that DDay was the biggest advance onto Europe but Italy was the first invaded?? I'm not sure?

Kai-Petri · #2 (**permalink**) January 8th, 2004, 04:58 PM

Welcome Tolinrome,

I think this one´s handy for you. It is the timetable for European battles and speaks for itself.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/ww...timetable.html

Friedrich · #3 (**permalink**) January 8th, 2004, 06:09 PM

Indeed, Italy was the main theatre of operations of the Western Allies since 1943.

And just one day before D-day, on June 5th 1944, Rome was captured by the US V Army.

Its commanding-in-chief, general Mark Clark sent a large ammount of his troops to the city - a target of very low, if none, military value - because he wanted to wanted to be known world-wide as the Conqueror of Rome. And he knew that after June 6th, all newspaper were going to be reporting 'Overlord'.

By doing this, general Clark allowed German X and XIV Armies to withdraw undisturbed all the way to prepared deffensive positions north of Rome.

Without driving his forces into the city, Clark could have easily attacked the Germans from the back with his forces of Anzio, and from the front at Cassino, thus, annihilating them - almost 15 divisions -, winning a great strategic victory and maybe shortening the war.

General Mark Clark was one of the best weapons the Germans had in WWII.

No.9 · #4 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2004, 03:00 AM

” General Mark Clark was one of the best weapons the Germans had in W.W.II."

There you go again with those negative waves Freddy, but quite right of course,

Tol, what you’re up against is the general pocket edition of W.W.II for those slightly interested – oh yes, and Hollywood. D-Day was not the invasion of Europe it was the invasion of Normandy/France. Depending on how you chose to look at it, Europe was invaded in 1943 with the island of Sicily on 8/9 July, or, on 3rd September when the Eighth Army landed at Reggio and Taranto and six days later the American Fifth Army landed at Salerno.

The British advocated the main attack on Germany by clearing Italy and advancing through Austria, with the added bonus of a closer pincer with the Soviets and curtailing their incursion into Europe at the same time. Germany meanwhile were never going to attempt any cross Channel invasion of Britain who could easily keep them committed to the Atlantic Wall which they could raid at will and eventually breach on a large scale. They had a contingency plan for the collapse of German forces in North West France and the Lowlands.

However, the US had their sights set on an invasion of France from England, being something they came to the table with and never deviated from. Italy therefore, became the ‘side-show war’ and progressively resources were diverted from there.

No.9

Friedrich · #5 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2004, 03:35 PM

Quote:

There you go again with those negative waves Freddy, but quite right of course

I can't help it, Nine...

And I will actually add a little more Clark-bashing to your post.

Quote:

However, the US had their sights set on an invasion of France from England, being something they came to the table with and never deviated from. Italy therefore, became the ‘side-show war’ and progressively resources were diverted from there.

Mark Clark over and over again kept saying that without D-day, if more resources would have been given to him, he could have had reached Vienna and won the war... Bla, bla, bla!

Hannibal and Napoléon managed to cross the Alps. But if I recall well, they were the master military geniouses of their respective centuries. And Clark was a BIT far from that...

The only thing I think he's right - and not only him, but Alexander as well as many others - is that 'Anvil' took away many resources from Italy at the moment in which a greater victory could have been achieved.

Which I think, would make another great thread. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Erich · #6 (**permalink**) January 9th, 2004, 04:22 PM

to get you more on track with the thread and out of the anti-clark mode........

The Luftwaffe being hammered by the mulitple useage of on shore AA batteries and ship AA decided to Launch Ju 88A-4 bombers from the day time rolde to the night time role. So concerned were they of the huge fleet on the Italien shoreline that any and all flyable a/c that could carry a bomb of any size was used.......

notice the blacked-out markings and the wellenmüster camo. Please discard the photo caption coming from the Ju 88 part 1 from squadron-signal pubs as it is a bit mis-leading

Major Destruction · #7 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 02:26 AM

Technically, Italy was invaded. Italy was not liberated. Italy surrendered to the invading forces.

No.9 · #8 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 03:10 AM

Would you care to explain the points to these statements as I can’t see what they seek to achieve?

” Technically, Italy was invaded.”
Technically, or any other way, Italy was invaded?

” Italy surrendered to the invading forces.”
In what way?

Talks for an armistice were going on between governments way before.

”Italy was not liberated.”
For the bulk of the time the Allies were in Italy, it certainly was. After the armistice, Italy declared war on Germany. Germany chose not to withdraw from that part of Italy it was still in and chose to occupy it by force with the aid of a fascist regime it chose to modify and perpetuate. When the Germans were driven out of Italy and the fascists were dealt with, a unified Italy did not become or seek to become an annex or satellite of Germany nor revert to a fascist State. Hence, the Italy that existed post war and exists today, was liberated from its previous state.

No.9

PzJgr · #9 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 03:15 PM

Jumping in here and hoping not to get burnt. France was invaded by Germany and being liberated by D-Day invasion. Italy was not invaded by any country and was being attacked by the allies. My interpretation.

No.9 · #10 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 09:11 PM

”Italy was not invaded by any country and was being attacked by the allies. My interpretation.”

And how did the Allies attack the physical State of Italy – they invaded it didn’t they? Did Italy belong to the Allies – no. Did Italy invite the Allies in – no. It was a mass incursion by force of a sovereign State by other Nations who neither had any claim to it or any invitation to do so. This is an invasion.

Considering one French regime actually wanted the Allies to land by force in France, and, among this force there were ethnic French, there is far more argument that Normandy was not, in effect, an invasion?

No.9

Major Destruction · #11 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 10:09 PM

I was not trying to write the concise history of the Italian State in WW2 but was trying to answer the original question which set the parameters.

Was Italy liberated before D-Day?

Answer, no.

Italy was invaded before D-Day and Italy surrendered after D-Day.

What happened after that is outside the scope of the original question.

Friedrich · #12 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Italy surrendered after D-Day.

No, it didn't. Italy surrenderewd on September 1943, nine months before D-day.

No.9 · #13 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 11:43 PM

Oh Freddy, oh Freddy, there you go again. We’re having a nice friendly philosophical discussion and you go and bring facts into it. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

No.9

Erich · #14 (**permalink**) January 13th, 2004, 11:53 PM

Actually the silly government in place surrendered in Septemeber of 1943 but the country itself was fought over till May of 45. Personally I think the bomber image is hot !

~E

No.9 · #15 (**permalink**) January 15th, 2004, 06:46 PM

"Actually the silly government in place surrendered in September of 1943"

IMHO, referring to the government as 'silly' is putting it mildly to say the least.

As for the dainty little King who was 'just happy to be there'. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

No.9

PzJgr · #16 (**permalink**) January 15th, 2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by No.9:
”Italy was not invaded by any country and was being attacked by the allies. My interpretation.”

And how did the Allies attack the physical State of Italy – they invaded it didn’t they? Did Italy belong to the Allies – no. Did Italy invite the Allies in – no. It was a mass incursion by force of a sovereign State by other Nations who neither had any claim to it or any invitation to do so. This is an invasion.

Considering one French regime actually wanted the Allies to land by force in France, and, among this force there were ethnic French, there is far more argument that Normandy was not, in effect, an invasion?

No.9

Symantics my friend. Attack, invade.....Either way Italy was the enemy, how do you liberate an enemy?

BratwurstDimSum · #17 (**permalink**) January 16th, 2004, 11:08 AM

Oh my god the Generale/No.9 tag team strikes again

I hope this clears things up somewhat:

From www.historychannel.com :

Quote:

"Italy has laid down her arms. The immediate and unconditional surrender was announced today by General Eisenhower." (September 8, 1943)

On September 3, 1943, the Allies began their invasion of mainland Italy, and the Italian government of Marshal Pietro Badoglio secretly agreed to surrender to the Allies. Italy's government had recently deposed Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and had no desire to continue a war that the Axis would apparently lose. In order to delay the regrouping of German forces in Italy, public announcement of the capitulation was not made until September 8. By the time Italy completed its volte-face and declared war against Germany on October 13, the Germans had seized control of Rome and most of central and northern Italy. For the next 18 months, the Allies and Germans fought each other up the peninsula. In May 1944, the Gustav Line, a system of German fortifications that straddled the peninsula about 75 miles south of Rome, fell to the Allies, who pushed on to Rome. The ancient capital of Italy fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944--just two days before the D-Day invasion of Normandy in occupied France. After the fall of Rome, the Germans regrouped further north, at which point a stalemate ensued as British and American forces threw most of their resources into the Normandy invasion. In April 1945, a new major offensive began, and on April 28 Mussolini was captured by Italian partisans and summarily executed. German forces in Italy surrendered on May 1, and six days later all of Germany surrendered.

All of you with realaudio can hear the original 1943 military radio broadcast here:
http://www.historychannel.com/speech...speech_505.ram

BratwurstDimSum · #18 (**permalink**) January 16th, 2004, 11:10 AM

OH my god, the Generale v no.9 tag team strikes again

[img]smile.gif[/img]

I hope this clears things up somewhat:

Quote:

"Italy has laid down her arms. The immediate and unconditional surrender was announced today by General Eisenhower." (September 8, 1943)

On September 3, 1943, the Allies began their invasion of mainland Italy, and the Italian government of Marshal Pietro Badoglio secretly agreed to surrender to the Allies. Italy's government had recently deposed Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and had no desire to continue a war that the Axis would apparently lose. In order to delay the regrouping of German forces in Italy, public announcement of the capitulation was not made until September 8. By the time Italy completed its volte-face and declared war against Germany on October 13, the Germans had seized control of Rome and most of central and northern Italy. For the next 18 months, the Allies and Germans fought each other up the peninsula. In May 1944, the Gustav Line, a system of German fortifications that straddled the peninsula about 75 miles south of Rome, fell to the Allies, who pushed on to Rome. The ancient capital of Italy fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944--just two days before the D-Day invasion of Normandy in occupied France. After the fall of Rome, the Germans regrouped further north, at which point a stalemate ensued as British and American forces threw most of their resources into the Normandy invasion. In April 1945, a new major offensive began, and on April 28 Mussolini was captured by Italian partisans and summarily executed. German forces in Italy surrendered on May 1, and six days later all of Germany surrendered.

All those of you with realplayer can hear the original 1943 Military radio broadcast here:

http://www.historychannel.com/speech...speech_505.ram

BratwurstDimSum · #19 (**permalink**) January 16th, 2004, 11:11 AM

OH my god, the Generale v no.9 tag team strikes again

[img]smile.gif[/img]

I hope this clears things up somewhat:

Quote:

"Italy has laid down her arms. The immediate and unconditional surrender was announced today by General Eisenhower." (September 8, 1943)

On September 3, 1943, the Allies began their invasion of mainland Italy, and the Italian government of Marshal Pietro Badoglio secretly agreed to surrender to the Allies. Italy's government had recently deposed Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and had no desire to continue a war that the Axis would apparently lose. In order to delay the regrouping of German forces in Italy, public announcement of the capitulation was not made until September 8. By the time Italy completed its volte-face and declared war against Germany on October 13, the Germans had seized control of Rome and most of central and northern Italy. For the next 18 months, the Allies and Germans fought each other up the peninsula. In May 1944, the Gustav Line, a system of German fortifications that straddled the peninsula about 75 miles south of Rome, fell to the Allies, who pushed on to Rome. The ancient capital of Italy fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944--just two days before the D-Day invasion of Normandy in occupied France. After the fall of Rome, the Germans regrouped further north, at which point a stalemate ensued as British and American forces threw most of their resources into the Normandy invasion. In April 1945, a new major offensive began, and on April 28 Mussolini was captured by Italian partisans and summarily executed. German forces in Italy surrendered on May 1, and six days later all of Germany surrendered.

All those of you with realplayer can hear the original 1943 Military radio broadcast here:

http://www.historychannel.com/speech...speech_505.ram