You started it like a child throving accusations on Poles surrounding Jews in Warsaw Ghetto

I admire Your Grandfather achievments ( it has nothing to do with our discusion)

You prefectly know that Poland was a home for most of the Jews in the World. ( it did not came from nowhere) Germans who invaded our country made a slautherhouse on our soil.
My grandmother saved a small jewish baby from masaccre in Narewka. The baby is my aunt Lisa.
My whole young live I give for studying Holocast places around Poland ( there are plenty of them).

In such terrible conditions and atrocities that the Nazis managed to create in Poland in times of Holocaust there was no way for some of the Poles to be helpful toward the Jews, some to be indifferent (out of fear) and for some to try to cheat and use you.
There is no fu...g excuse for calling the Poles of the time Nazi helpers. There were french SS-troops, ukrainian and no polish ones , so how can you say what you say.
It is extremely unfair because it's not polish people who "started" and in the way of presenting "facts" you seem to see more guilt in the Poles than in the Germans

You are saying that you also keen on other units that participated in 2WW. Why your picture does not present your true view?

Here we go again... Now try and read this properly as you obviously havent read my other posts properly...

No I didnt say that. I said Polish Police were 'involved'. I never said anything other than they helped the Germans, which they did. If you refer to the 'Stroop Report' the force is clearly listed under Order Police, along with a detachment of Polish Fire Brigade. The list in the Stroop report of those killed and wounded list the following members of the Polish Police that were either killed or wounded during the fighting to eradicate the ghetto...

"Polish Police Sergeant-Major Julian Zielinski KIA 19th April 1943 while carrying out his duties.

Polish Police Sergeant Franziszek Kluzniski WIA 19th April 1943

Polish Police Sergeant-Major Waclaw Frydrykewicz WIA 19th April 1943

Polish Police Sergeant Boleslaw Gruschecki WIA 20th April 1943

Polish Police Sergeant Boleslaw Stasik WIA 27th April 1943

Polish Police Private Jerzy Mostowski WIA 1st May 1943

Polish Police Sergeant Antoni Gladkowski WIA 1st May 1943"

Although it is difficult to ascertain their exact role in the 'fighting', as they are listed as Order Police with a number of other units, it would seem from the above losses that they were not merely assigned to the duties you state and must have had some involvement in the operations.

Yes it does. You seem to think Im some sort of Neo-Nazi because I disagree with you. I thought my background may help you realise differently. I couldnt give a stuff if you admired him or not. He was a true soldier till the end. I only wish he was alive now to talk to you... although I would probably have to edit his replies...

Possibly some Polish Volks-Deutche saw active service in the Waffen-SS. Whether you would classify them as truly 'Polish' is debatable so I aggree with you there. However there was a Polish Wehrmacht unit that was around for a short time.

No not really. Just trying to offer a differing viewpoint to your biased and sometimes incorrect claims.

Would you like to see pics of me in a Para uniform? I have my red beret somewhere... But yes I used to be in a Waffen-SS re-enactment unit. So what has that got to do with anything? I suppose in your warped imagination that immediatly makes me a Nazi? Well I used to be in an English Civil War re-enactment society so I must be a 'Roundhead' too...

Cant wait for your next reply...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Think we've discovered a new current of historical interpretation, it's called: Polaco-centrism. And we know it is true, because European history alone depended on Poland, its largest nation in territory, population and political, economical and cultural influence...



If you're going to be sarcastic, do it right. We don't need cheauvinist members at all, but we need even less members with a mediocre sense of humour.

Yes, they were French soldiers in the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS. There was a puppet régime in Vichy. Many French did collaborate in the assassination of 90.000 French Jews.

So, what's your point about bashing France? Vulgar vengeance? I've told you, I'm not only French and I am not disturbed by that, I am not like you: I do accept the truth, however dark it may be.

Well, the numbers I posted above come from late 1944, and they numbered 600.000 men and women. They were larger than any other resistance movement in the world, and much better trained and equipped too.

The Soviet armed forces were almost 20.000.000 men and women strong, among front-line and auxiliar troops. There can't be a comparisson at all.

January 10th 1943: Polish people denounce several thousand Jews who had been living in the forests since November 1942, they are captured, sent and gassed at Treblinka.

February 1943: 40.000 Jews are hidding in the woods of the Volhyna region. By the end of the year, 37.000 have been denounced and captured or have starved to death.

April 19th 1943: The Uprising of the Warsaw Ghetto begins. More than 2.000 German troops (SS, regular and foreign) invade the ghetto, trying to annihilate its 40.000 innhabitantes before Easter, but 700 Jews resist. They'll fight the Germans till mid-May. Polish resistance only offers testimonial help; because anti-semitism is widely spread within the organisation.

October 20th 1944: the Polish Home Army attacked Jewish Homes (and the very few Jews left) in the just-liberated neighbourghood of Ejszyski, in Warsaw.

All from The Holocaust Chronicle by Louis Weber et al.

Good for you! But, let me tell you, you have just lost ALL credibility in this forum, thanks to your childlish, chauvinist and arrogant attitude.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Stanchev - You don't seem to be able to reply like an adult to this thread and answer perfectly legitimate questions posed by this forum. Out of interest what is your qualifications in history? Myself and Red both hold degrees in History and War Studies and Red even holds a Mphil in the subject. I ask this because you don't seem to be able to grasp the basics of academic history, namely objectivity. There are many members of this forum who do not have these qualifications but still maintain this ability to be objective. This is why many of them my respect and I often turn to them when looking for sources. Why can't you? This is why you are annoying many good members here. Put it this way i don't think i'll turn to you for advice!

Ross

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Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

Likewise!

Maybe what a few here should understand is something called patriotism. When people start throwing mud on what Polish soldiers in WWII had to do, and what they accomplished, people like Stanchev and me get MAD!
Practically wherever there is mention of Poland, a few of you try to make it seem that Poles were all evil, and Jew-haters, inept soldiers who won battles just because of luck, and that anyone who says otherwise is a chauvinist or even racist. If you didn't do that, then there would not be this ridiculous argument.
The truth is, that after the war, vets from the west got to go home. Those from central and east europe who fought in the west had to decide to either return to their home countries that were betrayed to the communists, and probably be arrested, tortured, and maybe even executed by them, or to stay in countries like England, where people were becoming less and less kind toward foreigners. These men fought and died, only to be told in effect, "we don't need you anymore, get lost. helping you is not our problem."

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Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

Patritism read Nationalsim, the bad sort!!

I have no problem with poland or the polish people, I have several polish friends and none of them are as zealous as you lot. I respect the effort of the poles in WW2 but it must be put in context. Soemthing which you seem not to be able to do.

__________________
Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

Did you actually read any of the posts?

Has anyone slagged off the Polish Soldier and the contributions he made to the War?

NO.

What we are trying to do is balance the claims to reality and discern their sources. In fact very little has been discussed on the Polish soldiers. Perhaps you would like to read my posting of their actions at Falaise...

Not exactly slagging them off is it? I cant find any post that demeans the Polish Armed Forces actions in the war.

Tell me have you ever visited Mont Ormel and the memorial to the Poles there? I have several times.

I think that your nationalism is clouding your view and you are taking any attempts at discussion, the whole point of this forum, as a personal insult against Poland.

Or you just dont like being wrong...


If you think that the objective study of the war is bad then you came to the wrong place mate...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

objectivity? You mean the ability to eloquently regurgitate the b.s. that you were spoon fed since youth?
A long time ago, before I had even entered my university studies, I believed that anyone with a PhD was a genius, and that it was impossible to know more than they did about their given area of expertise, and someone with a masters was just a small step down. That lasted until I actually started my university studies, when those simplistic notions were shattered. I quickly found out that a history courses were very "objective", as you say. This meant that we were taught in whatever way the prof wanted to teach us, in other words, if he was some left-wing idiot (and a suprisingly high number were), he would try to indoctrinate us with things like America is the cause of all evil in the world, and moving towards communism is a good thing etc., while teaching a completely different subject.
When it came to history, this "objectivism" once again came into play. The professors would teach their version of history, from their own selection of books, which were also writted by left wing professors, on what the previous generation of left wing professors wrote... so, in the end, the current profs taught that communism was fine, and stalin was good, while only hitler was evil. Now, throw in a few more books like that for more detail, and you have a brand new masters or PhD.

Not my idea of knowledgable.

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Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

If you have realised that history is objective why don't you try using that and stop argueng that all the polish texts you use, most written under the communist regime, are correct. try doing what a good historian does and read several accounts and come up with an original opinion. instead of telling us what an official history written under the communists tells you. Have you ever thought your excepted the left wing crap you comment about.

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Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

HAHA! If you knew me, you would not say that.
The only reason I have to take out left wing crap from the library, is to have a good long laugh. By the way, the big sham made of history in those books sounds a whole lot like what a few here write.
Now the books I do use for research, are those which don't try to push the communist agenda. The books written in Poland under communism, by the way, glorify the soviets to a sickening extent. Read some of my posts again. If that doesn't help, read the following:


I HATE COMMUNISM, AND ALL IT STANDS FOR!


I hope that makes it all clear.

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Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

No one has thrown mud at Polish soldiers at all. On the contrary, we all hold the Poles in high-regard, whether it's about their services at Arnhem, Monte Cassino, the Battle of Britain or the Battle for Poland.

However, it has been Stanchev and others who have bashed French soldiers, for them 'lacking guts', the British for being 'xenophobes' or whatever.

You two have simply blown everything out of context. No one ever said that the Poles took Monte Cassino only because of luck. But you have said that they took it because they were better than the Free French, Americans, Indians or British who tried and failed.

Polish soldiers were very brave and very good troops, but in no way they were any better than their British, American or French mates.

No one has bashed Poland. All understand her great sacrifices and enormous sufferings.

But Poland was NOT the centre, cause or key factor of WWII. And that is a FACT.
¨
Excuse me, but no one has generalised either. But it seems that you two can't simply accept that anti-semitism was widely spread among the gentile population of Poland and that anti-semitic acts were commited by the Poles too. That is not bashing Poland, just mentioning things that actually happened.

No, a chauvinist is some one who comes and tries to make us believe that Poland was a martyr nation, that she was better than other nations, that she was good but was betrayed by her evil Allies.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

And I think so do we all.

So? What's your bloody point?

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I must say that either you cannot read mate or you haven´t even tried.

[img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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I am beginning to appreciate that our Polish contributors need to feel this way - any positive posts on this thread from 'outsiders' ( including me ) have been conveniently ignored.

Interesting.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Easy there. Acknowledging that some Poles helped with persecutions does not mean that all, or even a majority, of Poles acted that way. In a nation of millions, it would be rather strange if absolutely nobody disliked Jews, as widespread and accepted as antisemitism was back then.

There is not even a hint of denouncing all Poles as "Nazi helpers" in this thread!

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

I must thank You Martin Bull, Heartland, Kai-Petri and Polak z Polski
You are the only who seem to be without so called "polish chauvinist-phobia"
thats the only argument which is used to diqualify my oppinions.

-

with that sentence you prooved that your knowladge of 2WW is very subjective. Polish Wehrmacht was Silesian boys forcely drafted by the Germans. You can not say that about western Waffen SS units (mostly voluteers)

OK I understand your outfit it is a kind of hobby [img]smile.gif[/img] No problem with that.

and General der Infanterie Friedrich H:
please dont try to find antisemite in me. You will not succeed. Personally I can give you stories about Polish NSZ fighters who fought against Germans and same time killed Jews escaping from Nazi captivity, like those from Sobibor. For me is the biggest shame. It does not change my oppinion that Polish underground army representaed by AK was the biggest during 2WW and again I must remind You that those acts wouldnt happen If here was a Polish government with the Police force and Law order.


Mahross: [quote]instead of telling us what an official history written under the communists tells you.[quote]I hope you don't believe in what you wrote. Have you heard about Poland being free for last 16 years. You know we also have the books. )

sorry mate. remind me please where is this sentence? Maybe somewhere in your head [img]smile.gif[/img] )?

[quote]Practically wherever there is mention of Poland, a few of you try to make it seem that Poles were all evil, and Jew-haters, inept soldiers who won battles just because of luck, and that anyone who says otherwise is a chauvinist or even racist. If you didn't do that, then there would not be this ridiculous argument.[quote]

BRAVO! My english is too poor to pass those information by myself
As Polak z Polski said You guys seem to admire polish achievments in 2WW so why when I write something about Poles capturing some Hill in Europe You are trying immediatly finding some names of polish policemen helping Stroop killing unarmed and almost starved to death people?

It practically looks like this:
General do Infaterie... would say that "You are chauvinist" (nothing new from him)

Mahross... "you dont know the facts beacause you did not study History" ( try better , too simple)

TheRed Baron
will notice some polish nazi helpers on the internet ( of course from the different angle [img]smile.gif[/img] ))


I agree with most of you that discussion started to loose right proportion
as Polak wrote .. started with throwing mud on Polish soldiers.
and finished on challenging our abilities for objective discussion supported by proper knowledge

What I propose is " cease-fire"

and going back to share informations about 2WW facts we know ar heard from testimonies lkie The Red Baron's grandfather

Stanchev, I come to this discussion late, but none the less...

Poland did much for the allied cause in ww2, I dont think any one doubts that. Be it in their homeland or serving with other nations. No one can doubt their bravery and courage.

However, and there is always an howerver. Must I point you to 1936, and the laws enacted in Poland in regards to Jews in Poland? I take it you know the countries history in the years directly preceeding ww2. And I have no wish for any slanging matches, but history is history, written laws enacted in the countries own parliament were written and were enacted, its that simple.

If you wish though we can go through them in detail?

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Yes I will be very grateful if you give me some details

Anyway even If your statements were truth I dont think Poland had more unjust Law that other democratic coutries that time Coutries like Australia (towards minorities, ) South Africa (blacks) USA ( blacks, indians, immigrants) etc.

As Kai said, you guys simply cannot read…

I've told you that I don't think you're an anti-semite nor that I'll try to make you lo