I'm interested in how much people living in the West know about Polish influence in the World War II history.

How much do you know about the German-Polish fights on September 1939? Have you heard about Westerplatte, or Bzura Battle?

Can you mention some of the biggest battles of Polish Army (on the all fronts of WW2), or which Polish Army had fought in?

Do you know what National Army was? Can you say what operation "Burza" ("Storm") was? Or the Warsaw Uprising in 1944? Or the uprising in Warsaw Getto?

Have you ever heard about the Polish submarine "Orzel" ("Eagle") and its escape from Baltic Sea? About the Polish ship ORP "Piorun" ("Thunderbolt")?

Do you know what happened in Katyn?

And, finally, have you known that THE POLES deciphered German Enigma code?

I want only to check up how much do you know about Polish forces in the WW2. If you answered me, it would be nice [img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________
Poland - first to fight...

Guilty on all counts!
I for some strange reason know about all the above

Zkad jestes?
Ja sie urodzilem w Rybniku(na Slasku) ale moja rodzina pochodzi z okolo Poznania i tez z Wieliczki.

__________________
Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

Polak z Polski ,


Got any info on the defensive structures on your western border against the Germans August 1939?

Thanx!

__________________

a good site in English is: www.polandinexile.com

__________________
Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

Falcon,

I know about most of what you list, but not all.

If I were to list a simliar set of questions about Australians efforts in WW2 would you have any idea???

Instead of being a smartarse, how about enlightening us about these efforts.

__________________
Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

This seems slightly simplistic - rather like saying that Einstein built the Atomic bomb.

Every book I have ever read about ULTRA gives full credit to the work done by the Poles pre-war on the Enigma codes.Lewin in 'Ultra Goes To War ' states that the Poles had succeeded in decyphering the codes of the Enigma three-rotor machine which had six alternative drum positions ; however, the Germans had moved onto a machine with five drums, or sixty alternative positions. The Poles had not had time to master this machine prior to the outbreak of war, when the Polish findings were handed to the French at the Chateau de Vignolles.

The Polish contribution was vital, but much work remained to be done before the operational Enigma codes were broken.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Definitely the Poles did a remarkable job ( and should not be forgotten here ) but making it sound like the people at Bletchley Park did nothing new about it is as poor a quote as saying the Poles did nothing about it in the first place.

There was alot more to do like:

http://www.picotech.com/applications/colossus.html

Design of Colossus (computer ) started in March 1943 and the first unit was operational at Bletchley Park in Jan 1944. Colossus was immediately successful, the Colossus - Tunny combination allowed 'high grade' German codes to be decoded in hours.

The German Army High Command however, did not rely on Enigma, but on a more complex system based on encoded teleprinter traffic using a machine developed by the Lorenz company.

http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm

Brigadier John Tiltman, one of the top codebreakers in Bletchley Park, took a particular interest in these enciphered teleprinter messages. They were given the code name "Fish". The messages which (as was later found out) were enciphered using the Lorenz machine, were known as "Tunny". Tiltman knew of the Vernam system and soon identified these messages as being enciphered in the Vernam manner.

--------

As well alot of data could be gathered by listening to the radio signals on the continent and they should not be forgotten either.

__________________

you left out their contributions in operation market garden. general sosabowski rules!

I like him too. Did you know that the poor guy got relieved of his command after the operation failed. He warned that it would probably fail, and criticized the naivety of the commanders and after the failure he got relieved for it.

Montgommery, Horrocks, and later, Browning didn't like him. They expected him to just nod and say yes all the time. He was a good commander. I'm sure that if they had listened to even half of his suggestions, market garden would have turned out better.

__________________
Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

__________________
Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

I agree with you about Sosabowski. His tragedy was that he was revered by his men, but disliked by his Allies ; he was a fighting man with no tact and diplomacy.

It is no consolation, but every serious historian of Arnhem has given full credit to him - far too late, I agree - and the political machinations of the British officers are universally deplored.

Martin Middlebrook in 'Arnhem 1944' devotes a section of the book to the treatment of the Poles post-Arnhem, in particular the humiliation of Sosabowski, and admits : 'It was a shameful act by the British Commanders' (p.448 ).

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I can only imagine what he must have felt like during and after market garden. I'm amazed that he didn't have a nervous breakdown or something.
You'd think that allies would value their allies, not neglect and later despise them.

I also wonder what the Poles fighting on the western front felt when they recieved word that their country was betrayed.
Many allied soldiers who fought with Poles were greatly saddened by this too. One example was at a RAF base, when the news was announced over the radio. All the Brits in the room averted their eyes, and stared at the floor, except for one, who was crying in shame.

It is so sad when politicians ruin what soldiers have fought so hard to gain. The British soldiers for example, sureley would have helped Poles retake their country, had the order been given.

Let's hope that there is no such war as this ever again, and if there is, that allies will be allies. No betrayals, just honor in the fight, and the love of what is good.

__________________
Co nam obca przemoc wziela,
Szabla odbierzemy

Sosabowski main criticisms were directed towards the precursor operation Comet, which he felt would not succeed due to the lack of troops involved. This operation was cancelled but enlarged to become Market-Garden. His main point, and this was NOT only voiced by him but also by Hackett, Gale and others, was the general lack of thought displayed towards the German reaction. Most Battalion and Brigade Airborne commanders felt that the German reaction to the operation would be swift and bloody. As Gale stated...

"The plan would have worked if the oppsition was slight, but gut feelings at the time, based on respect of the GErmans as soldiers and masters of improvisation, was that the German reaction to a threat to their heartland would be rapid and violent."

Sosabowski was not the only officer who voiced opinions against Comet/Market-Garden, several did. But the operation went ahead regardless.


And what suggestions were these?

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Would you stop ranting like if this had been the rule and not the exception? Though I know I'm asking too much…

Stop stating that Poland was a martyr nation, betrayed by her wicked Allies. Enough.

And the British soldiers would NOT have fought for Poland's freedom if it meant fighting the Soviet Union. It was absolute NONSENSE.

It was Poland's fate. Poland exists to-day and is a free nation, an impossible thing under the existance of the Nazi Régime. Such thread was destroyed with great sacrifices and now, there it is, the Polish race, language, culture, State, territory…

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

but dont You thinh taht would be better if France attacked Germany on 2nd September 1939
Germany would not survive fighting on 2 fronts

but NOOO
"French just did not want to die for Danzig"
so they died for Oradour

Germany would probably have survived the very uncoordinated and unprepared attack it would have made on that date. Nothing would have likely been achieved.

Im getting a bit fed up with all the unfounded French bashing to be honest...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

The awkward Franco-British war machine simply was not able to launch an attack strong-enough until mid-October 1939, too damn late. And the Poles were very well aware of the French's incompetence. They overrated the French and underrated the Germans, as did the French overrated the Poles and underrated the Germans.

BAD mistake...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I dont think they were not ready. France had bigger army that Germany that time, but for sure less courage that Poland and England

The western allied never should have lost their contact on negotiations with Stalin. Without the 2-front war fear Hitler was able to do things his way.

__________________

so it was the pact with the devil?
dont You think it is ironic that polish armed forces fought against germans in Narvik, Tobruk, Battle of Britain, monte Cassino, Bologna, Holland (Arnhem) Falaise and same time the same Poles were executed by Soviet allies in Katyn forest (20 000 officers)

Yes.

Next question ?

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

LOL

Well, technically Katyn didnt happen at the same time as the late war, as the massacres took place in the Spring of 1940. I presume Stalin didnt feel under threat and possibly had no intentions of dealings with the Allies.

But yes... Choose a devil to fight a devil. Churchill often gave very anti-Soviet speeches pre-war, so it was a case of picking one side to fight against another...

I was just reading Louis Fitzgibbon's book on Katyn the other day...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

The battles you mention cost just as many casualties to the allies. For example:

Arnhem - Brits
Tobruk - Aussies, South Africans, Brits
Monte Cassino - Brits, Canadian, Americans, French, Morrocans

The list could go one. The Poles were not used because they were 'elite', they were used because they were there to be used. Usually 'elite' units go in first not last as was often the case with Polish units. So it could be argued that Allied commanders were making an effort to conserve Polish lives.

As Martin says next!!

__________________
Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art