German Panzer Divisions 1941-1945.

Friedrich · #1 (**permalink**) June 14th, 2004, 04:08 PM

This topic is intended to show how the armoured fists of the German Army were almost exclusively destroyed and defeated in the eastern front, showing the operational efficiency and power of the Red Army.

Panzer Division/Eastern Front/Western Front/Mediterranean Front

1st/ 41-45/
2nd/ 41-43/43-45
3rd/41-45
4th/41-45
5th/41-45
6th/41-45
7th/41-45
8th/41-45
9th/41-44/44-45
10th/41-42/42/43
11th/41-44/44-45
12th/41-45
13th/41-45
14th/41-45
15th/ / /41-43
16th/41-43; 44-45/ /43
17th/41-45
18th/41-45
19th/41-45
20th/41-45
21st/45/44/41-43
22nd/41-43
23rd/42-45
24th/42-45
25th/43-45
26th/ / /43-45
27th/43
116th/ /44-45
130th Panzerlehr/ /44-45
Großdeutschland/41-45

All units are listed with their complete career from 1941 till the moment they surrendered, were destroyed or disbanded.

Friedrich · #2 (**permalink**) June 14th, 2004, 06:26 PM

Here are the rest:

Panzer Division/Eastern Front/Western Front/Mediterranean Front

1st SS/41-42; 43; 43-44; 45/42-43; 44-45/43
2nd SS/ 41-42; 43-44; 45/42-43; 44
3rd SS/41-45
5th SS/41-45
9th SS/44/43-44; 44-45
10th SS/44; 45/43-44; 44-45
12th SS/45/43-45
Hermann Göring/44-45/ /42-44

This shows not only that Waffen SS Panzer divisions were the ones more frequently transfered during the war, but that only FOUR German Panzer divisions between 1941 until 1944 exclusively fought the Western Allies…

The grand total is:

Panzer divisions that faced the Western Allies in 1941-1945: 16
Panzer divisions that faced the USSR in 1941-1945: 34

[ 14. June 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

Daniel Jones · #3 (**permalink**) June 17th, 2004, 04:18 PM

Excellent study!

Clausewitz · #4 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 05:24 PM

Nice study Herr General!

However to determinate the efficiency, shouldn’t you also find the ratio between forces (just an idea!)

Best Regards,
Clausewitz

TheRedBaron · #5 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 06:26 PM

Dont understand how that proves Red Army efficency if you have no losses from the other side or the ratio of percentage losses per theatre.

Thus although smaller numbers may have served in the West they may have suffered a higher percentage loss rate. This would make the west more costly in percentage terms...

Will have a look at Zetterlings comparison of East vs West tonight...

Za Rodinu · #6 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 09:09 PM

I have to say I didn't find Fried's original post too clear...

RB, exactly what book are you referring to?

Cheers,
M!

TheRedBaron · #7 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Za,

Zetterlings book Normandy has an article on the comparison of the Normandy fighting to fighting on the Eastern Front.

Will read it up tonite, but I think he basically says that in terms of percentage loss rates, Normandy was worse then the Eastern Front.

But I may be wrong, its along time since I read it!

Will read it tonite and post later...

RED

TheRedBaron · #8 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 09:56 PM

had a quick look and not sure...

It states that more losses occeured on the East, that more vehicle losses occured in the West and that more Germans would have surrendered in the West.

Will have a proper read of it...

T. A. Gardner · #9 (**permalink**) July 25th, 2004, 11:30 PM

I don't recall any comparative armored battle on the Eastern Front to the armored actions between the Germans and US around Avaranches and Nancy for example. In these battles the Germans had a numerical advantage in most cases in terms of armor yet, got literally shot to pieces repeatedly by their US counterparts.
In fact, it seems a rarity that German armor did well in the West except in isolated tactical cases and then usually because one or two of their tank aces happened to be present. This is hardly descriptive of the Eastern Front where the norm was large Soviet losses regardless of what German panzer unit was fighting.

Air Force 4 Life · #10 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 07:45 AM

Very nice study! All good information....

There were also a lot more casualties on the Eastern front b\c of the Russian's hate for Germans. The Germans would not usually surrender to the Russian's by choice b\c they would be killed. The Russians showed very little mercy when dealing with POW's. However, on the Western front they were lining up on highways to surrender to the Allies.

TheRedBaron · #11 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 09:26 AM

Have read some interesting bits...

Will add them later!

RED

Za Rodinu · #12 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:
Will read it up tonite, but I think he basically says that in terms of percentage loss rates, Normandy was worse then the Eastern Front.

Thanks, RB, right off the bat I can accept the Russians were somewhat better at dying than the Western Allies, by looking at casualties suffered.

We'll say more when come up with your figures. Meanwhile I'll be looking for Glantz online book that may be interesting here.

TheRedBaron · #13 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 10:33 AM

Za,

cool, you check Glantz, I will have a look at Zetterling and Ellis. I think I have divisional losses for all theatres somewhere... But unsure of the reliability of my Soviet figures...

RED

m kenny · #14 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 11:39 AM

Quote:

" where the norm was large Soviet losses regardless of what German panzer unit was fighting"

The 'norm' on The Eastern Front was large German losses. The bulk of the German panzers were smashed here and in terms of numbers there is simply no comparison between the two fronts.
Whilst we may read of the mythical 20+ Russian tanks destroyed by every panzer the figures for tanks produced show that this ratio was physicaly impossible.
The Russians took a little time coming to terms with the new style of warfare but they soon mastered it and tore the heart out of the German Army. No one country won the war on its own but the Soviet Union can claim to have done the most.

TheRedBaron · #15 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 02:45 PM

Well lets not turn this thread into 'Did the USSR win WW2?'...

M Kenny do you have any sources for losses by antagonist per theatre? Maybe we can build up a picture of German armour losses over the war or at least for the late war period? I guess that the figures for the last year of the war are going to be unreliable at best...

Will get to posting up an outline of Zetterling and Ellis' findings today...

Friedrich · #16 (**permalink**) July 26th, 2004, 04:36 PM

How can you say this 'study' is not representative?

Just form the idea that 34 German armoured divisions —approximately 8.500 armoured vehicles and 408.000 men— faced the Red Army from 1941-1945 and that this huge force was entirely destroyed during these years of fighting. Because none of these units, when withdrawn from the eastern front and re-deployed ever got out in one piece.

Quote:

Well lets not turn this thread into 'Did the USSR win WW2?'...

We all know the answer…

And figures may be even higher, because these Panzer divisions were destroyed several times, encircled or just bled to death fighting.

TheRedBaron · #17 (**permalink**) July 27th, 2004, 12:12 AM

Some figures I picked out from Zetterlings book...

Missing in Normandy = 69%
Missing on Eastern Front = 20%

He states that German troops were more willing to surrender to the Western Allies... He also suggests that the shortages of fuel and transport were more of a problem in the West and made retreat difficult.

Normandy Vs Bagration

German losses in the East

26,361 killed
109,776 wounded
262,959 missing

Greater than the Losses suffered in the West in the Summer of '44. He also remarks that more divisions were completly destroyed in the East.

German armour losses ALL fronts 1st June to 31st August 1944...

2,366 tanks
1,684 SPGs

He also notes a lack of organic repair units in the West, over half the German Armoured Regiments in Normandy lacked their repair companies. Thus tanks would have to go to rear workshops rather than repair near the front.

An example on the Eastern Front...

After Op Citadel there were 135 Panthers in the East. Only 19 were operational, while 74 were at repair workshops belonging to their units. 15 had been sent to Germany for repair and 27 to the facility at Dnepropetrovsk.

He states that fewer 'frontline' repair facilities were available in the West and tanks would have to be sent to rear areas for repair.

He also writes... "another important factor was that many of the German armour formations in the West were units depleted after sustained combat on the EAstern Front".

Losses on Eastern Front until May 1944.

751,237 Killed
2,824,807 Wounded
541,043 Missing

His final comment sums it up...

"Since France was a backwater for years - while violent battles were fought on the Eastern Front - few vehicles were sent to Western Europe".

Will add more in a few days, off to the South for a few days, hope to visit the German Cemetary in Wexford...

ZA,

Guess you know why Im the RED Baron now... Im getting more Soviet every posting...

Friedrich · #18 (**permalink**) July 27th, 2004, 01:06 AM

I'm glad you're seing the light, Mike. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Za Rodinu · #19 (**permalink**) July 27th, 2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:
ZA,

Guess you know why Im the RED Baron now... Im getting more Soviet every posting...

Hehehe, you don't want to know my alias in the Yahoo Spearhead group

Then you'll like this:
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publica...g-war41-45.pdf (Fried, this is the PDF I told you about a few weeks ago)

Careful, it's a 8Mb or so PDF. This gives a fine overview of East Front (one of these days you'll start writing Great Patriotic War

) battles we don't normally hear much about, plus in each chapter you get summary numbers in East and West Fronts, allowing some interesting comparisons. For one example compare El Alamein to Op. Mars and Stalingrad, it's a totally different show!

Quote:

A COMPARATIVE CHRONOLOGY OF OPERATIONS ON THE EASTERN AND WESTERN FRONTS DURING THE WINTER CAMPAIGN OF 1942-43

In late October and November 1942, 10 British divisions, including 3 armored, with 480 tanks defeated 9 German and Italian divisions (including 2 panzer divisions), in the Battle of El Alamein, inflicting 60,000 casualties on the Germans, and, in Operation Torch, 4-5 Allied divisions (107,000 men) landed in Morocco and Algeria.

In November and December 1942, 7 Soviet armies with 83 divisions, 817,000 men and 2,352 tanks struck German Ninth Army at Rzhev in Operation Mars. The 23 defending German divisions barely managed to repel the assaults, but inflicted almost 250,000 casualties on the Russians (including almost 100,000 dead) and destroyed roughly 1,700 tanks.

From November 1942 to February 1943, at Stalingrad and along the Don River, 17 Soviet armies with 1,143,000 men, over 160 divisions, and 3,500 tanks destroyed or badly damaged 5 Axis armies, including 2 German, totaling more than 50 divisions, and killed or captured more than 600,000 Axis troops.

Another example:

Quote:

A COMPARATIVE CHRONOLOGY OF OPERATIONS ON THE EASTERN AND WESTERN FRONTS DURING THE SUMMER-FALL CAMPAIGN OF 1943

In July 1943 160,000 U.S. and British forces invaded Sicily, defeated 60,000 German defenders, and advanced into southern Italy. The Germans lost 20,000 men and the Allies 22,000.

During July and August 1943, the 2.5 million Red Army troops defeated over 1 million Germans at Kursk and subsequently launched offensives by over 6 million Red Army soldiers against 2.5 million Germans along a front of over 1,500 miles and advanced toward the Dnepr River.

*****

In October and November 1943 in Italy, 11 Allied divisions advanced 16-39 miles from the Volturno River line to Cassino against 9 German divisions.

From October through November 1943, 6 Red Army fronts with 37 armies, over 4 million men, and over 300 divisions assaulted German defenses in a 770-mile sector in Belorussia, at Kiev, and along the lower Dnepr River, piercing the German Eastern Wall in four regions.

*****

On 31 December 1943, U.S. Army strength in Europe reached 1.4 million men and 17 divisions. Red Army strength reached 6.2 million men and over 500 divisions.

Of course my intention is not to disparage the Allied ground effort, but we should not do the converse error and take the parochial view by overlooking the magnitude of the effort on the East Front.

One of the reasons sometimes we read statistics on panzer numbers in the E. and W. fronts and we read surprisingly low figures on the E. Front, has it occurred to you that the figures should indeed be higher, were it not for the rest having been ground down, and not always by Soviet mice eating the wiring. When you read about PzDivs. having 20 tanks only, the rest are not all malfunctions, they're damn frigging combat losses

RB, what's the exact title of this Zetterling book?

[ 27. July 2004, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Za Rodina ]

Air Force 4 Life · #20 (**permalink**) July 28th, 2004, 05:58 AM

Wow, someone hit a "vein." LOL, very good comparison. It's easy to go with the norm, and the blatent public view that I have always grown up with, Western front had more publicity. But a good read nevertheless.

thx
v\r TRB