Okay okay! I know it's probably been asked before but I would just like to know who's side all of you are in support of. This is purly military, stratigic, and technological. Post your thought here also! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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maybe not the best thing to be posting? :\

Perhaps not the best phrased topic!

Could be construed wrongly by some...


White 3

Two things...

Whats aspects of Germany in WW2 do you think have a need for re-evaluation and what bad reputation do you think needs to be put right?

But, playing devil's advocate here, how can you support/admire a military regime that unleashed the Holocaust?

Just interested as I have had a similar discussion on another forum but from the opposite angle to yours.

RED

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Let´s say I´m more interested in the axis side military achivements and soldiers in WW2 actually than supporting any dictatorships...

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Let's say I'm more like Kai. My specialities are to study the Wehrmacht and its campaigns and the Japanese in the Pacific, but I in no way support them as a military force and even less their régimes.

We not only know that neither Japanese, Germans nor Italians deserved to win, since their policies were horrible. But also they lost because of their own incompetence, megalomania and stupidity.

My main area of interest is the German Wehrmacht, but after serious research you come up with facts that prove the German super-soldiers were not that superior, that the Wehrmacht was not an advanced fighting force and that the German High Command was quite incompetent…

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Sorry if my post was a little harsh, was not meant to sound that way...

I am just interested in White 3's reasons for the reappraisal of Germany. It is a statement I have not heard before and am interested in his 'angle'. I had a discussion on another forum with a person from the other end of the spectrum as regards Waffen-SS and reapprasing their history.

As you all know I am very interested in the German forces... and just about anything to do with WW2.

Was just a strange title for a topic and I was wondering on the context of the question.

I like German tanks but I wouldnt have wanted them to win...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Yes I know it isn't phrased well but what I support is not Hitler or the Nazi's. It is the German soliders who fought and died for their country just like the allies exept they were regarded as heart6less beasts who only wanted death! Yes, I agree the Holocaust was horrible and hitler was insain and some of his men were crazy men who only wanted to kill. But some were just normal people caught in a war they didn't want and just did as they were told trying to survive and see their familys again! On the technological stand piont I feel that Germany had far supperior technology, they just didn't have the resources to back it up(not to mention their leader was an idiot). On the tactical side I support many allied commanders, Patton, McAurther, ect. But I also support one German commander and feel as though he was a genius! Whitch is Erwin Rommel. I hate Hitler and the SS men and soliders who supported his Holocaust and his death camps. But I fully support the men who died for their country!

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White 3,

Thanks for the response, a few things...

By whom? I know some authors have this opinion of Waffen-SS units but I have not seen it in relation to others. I think most people would agree with you that these men caught used by an evil regime that abused their sense of duty.

One school of thought would suggest that the Waffen SS were just soldiers fighting for a cause. Why differentiate the Waffen-SS? If from a tactical view point some of the actions of SS units are worthy of study. Is it because of the artocities that the units committed? If so then does this stand true for Wehrmacht units that committed atrocities? It seems a bit unfair to honour a dead Wehrmacht soldier, and to disregared the death of a Waffen-SS soldier. The Waffen-SS undoubtedly contained many dubious characters, but also many normal Germans too, so why not look at the role of the Waffen-SS? Or is this topic still too controversial for historians to study?

Hmmmm... Cant be that good, Monty beat him... Ok divisional commander but a bit overated as Army commander... Think we had a topic on this not long ago...

Not just let down by resources, these German wonder weapons suffered from LOTS of teething problems and were a mechanical nightmare, not too mention the lack of logistical support in the German war machine... Plus poor steel on late war tanks...etc. What are these superior technologies and how could they have made a difference?


Thats it for now! Was gonna write more but fotgot what I was gonna say!!!

Oh and welcome to the forums!

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

You misunderstood me. What I ment by the SS and soliders I ment the SS and soliders who supported the holocaust because they felt it was right. And you are completly correct that the SS had some great tactics and some great men. As for the people who feel that German soliders were beasts, nearly everyone I talk to or share my opinion with feels that way. That is why I joined these forums. As for Rommel, everyone has their own opinion and I respect that [img]smile.gif[/img] . But I hope that this discussion is purly just a debate and that you Red , or anyone else doesn't take it personal. Oh and thanks for the welcome! [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

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This is the problem encountered when trying to re-evaluate the Germans in WW2. It is very easy for people to misunderstand your views. But I understand your views now.

Trust me, i take nothing personal, unless its from Mahross, and thats cos he was one of my students!

Glad to have you aboard White 3, and enjoy the forums, somebody has an answer for any query or question!

RED

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Thanks! Glad it's all cleared up! See ya around the forums! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Welcome aboard, White3! Hope you enjoy yourself in this forum. But I'm afraid I'll have to severely question some of your statements.

It is erroneous to regards German foot soldiers as 'common soldiers who fought for their buddies', no matter if they were SS, Luftwaffe or Army soldiers. All were Nazi Germans, lived in and fought for a country that had a masochist and very happy romance with Hitler and his sub-ordinates.

It was average foot soldiers the ones that killed Jews, communists, partisans, POWs and beureaucrats en masse in the east. And they very rarely did all that with a gun pointing at their head. These same men burned villages, summarily shot partisans and collaborators and captured POWs.

Waffen SS troops were indeed an élite, but they were fanatics who shot unarmed POWs at Caën and burned alive civilians in Oradour. And those incidents are not the biggest of all, just the most known. Incidents like those were the rule in Yugoslavia and the USSR and in greater scales, done by police SS, Waffen SS, Military Police, local auxiliars, Army police and front Army units. Not even Luftwaffe ground crews and pilots are innocent of such atrocities.

I won't argue about Rommel. He is simply one of the most overrated generals in History. Genial at tactical level but incompetent as strategist. A gentleman, but also a supporter of Hitler and a tyrannic egotistical commander.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Weiße drei.

seems your signature is a Me 262 of Addi Galland ? If so the upper tones would be dark green not grey. The a/c was also flown by the T.O. of JV 44, ace Franz Stigler

Very true words Freddy, been reading about Gebirgsjager atrocities lately... But unsure of the sources involved.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Fried I think you language of Nazi Germans needs a little down toning. Don't give us this crap about all Germans being Nazi's because they served under a corrupt empire. I take offense at your statements and so do MY relatives ! Hoping you see what I am talking about..........

verstehen ?

Not to gang up - but no one deserves a broad brush - that's like saying all soviets were hard-core communists (I don't think they had a choice) - or all French were collaborators. I'm no "fan" of the Nazis - there's no denying that the Germans murdered millions of civilians and they were the most sinister about it - if there is a definition of evil out there - Nazi is right up there - but I'm not for a wholesale indictment of the entire German people. And let's not forget that the Soviets and Japanese weren't the nicest guys either.

And speaking of soldier attrocities - I think it's fair to say that all sides had their share and I don't think that had anything to do with their "politics". War is hell.

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"I die for my fatherland. I have a clear conscience." - Admiral Wilhelm Canaris

A quick response:

White 3 claims the Germans were far ahead in technology compared to the Allies. I would ask in what field(s)?
Aerospace? Both had similar levels of knowledge and aircraft design. True, the Germans had a small lead in high speed / transonic design and jet engines but this was hardly overwhelming.
Metallurgy? The Germans trailed badly
Naval engineering? No contest. The Allies were light years ahead except in the field of submarine propulsion systems.
Electronics? Göring himself stated in 1944 that the Germans "weren't even in the same race" as the Allies as the Germans had fallen so far behind.
Production / industrial engineering? The Allies absolutely crushed Germany in efficency.
Weapons? The Germans had a better machine gun and did come up with the assault rifle. On the Allied side the VT fuze and artillery systems are counter examples.
Medicine? The Allies were far ahead in this field too.
Food? The US rations system was the envy of every combatant.
Uniforms? The British / US system of layered combat uniforms was revolutionary. Everyone adopted these systems post war.
Automotive? US vehicles were far better in design and quality to virtually everything else. The British and Russians at least rationalized their vehicles for mass production unlike the polyglot of complex designs the Germans usually had.
Armor? The Germans were more flexible in coming up with survivable tanks than the Allies but, their inability to produce these in quantity was a mistake they couldn't rectify.
So, where were the Germans really out in front technologically?

I think you already know this T.A.

Aircraft prototypes. If anything till the last months of the war, GErman techs envisioned some pretty amazing a/c which led into the future, a/c we see from both the US and Russian perspectives. the flying wing comes to mind. As you stated German tech was extremely limited to just keeping the Wehrmacht alive and surviving.

I see Freddy's point but I have to say not all Germans were Nazis, same as all Soviets werent communists...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Before we go off the rails with 'all Germans were Nazis'....

To read the opinions of a courageous and humane man who fought bravely and in later life has grappled with the problem of how and why ordinary Germans followed a criminal regime, I recommend ex-Nightfighter Peter Spoden's book 'Enemy In The Dark'. .

He originally wrote it for his grand-children in an attempt to explain his own feelings before and during the war.

The book has certainly helped me to understand a little more.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Is it still in print, do you know?

That's true, some German prototypes in the final stages of the war were remarkable, but without being able to put such designs into action and in quantity they're just pipe-dreams.