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  #26 (permalink)  
Old April 30th, 2005, 11:25 PM
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Red Baron I am looking for confirmation that polish troops form Maczek panzer Division fighting at Falaise captured and executed 1200 SS-man?
I found that info in Steven Ambrose book "Ciztizens in Uniforms"
American GI's took over 300 SS-man POW's form polish soldiers at Falaise
They were supposed to hand over 1500
When they asked what happened to the rest
ANWSER was; We shot them all
  #27 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 12:59 AM
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I will have a look and see what I have and PM you any info that I've got on it, but I have heard this from sources other than Ambrose.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 10:04 AM
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It is strange... For information, I am Polish of origin but I'm French after all! You have rancour against French because we did not come in 1939 to help you... It is ridiculous! France and Poland have a long friendship. We helped you with XVIIe, at the XVIIIE century... We have creates the duchy of Warsaw with Napoleon. You fought, with us the Russians, the Spaniards (Thinks of the Poniatowski Marshal)... I can't understand why you hate France as much. If you were German or British, I would understand, but there... I have many things to say, of things to specified. Unfortunately, my English is medium...
  #29 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 12:50 PM
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Hello everybody [img]smile.gif[/img]

Stanchev, your vision of the history is partial. Of course, the collaboration is a reality and a shame for France. And a lot of time was necessary so that the French admit it. But collaborationists were always a minority. Approximately 30 000 men were volunteers to fight for Third Reich. 30 000 men for a population of 40 million people. Proportionally, it is much less than other countries as Netherlands or Norway.
Then, you don’t talk about the Free French who fought with Great-Britain: soldiers, seamen and aviators. On June 1942, there were 70 000 men in the Free French Forces. After November 1942, the new French army fought with Great-Britain and USA: in Tunisia ( 75 000 men, 4 500 KIA), in Italy (4 divisions, 6 577 KIA and 2 088 MIA). The 1st French army took part to the landing of Provence (operation Anvil / Dragoon). These soldiers released a part of the French territory. Finally they invaded the south of Germany.
So, I think that the war would have in any event gained without France. But it is also undeniable that French soldiers won this war.

A last thing, you wrote:

"I remember french propaganda before september 1st 1939 "We dont want to die for Danzig (polish town)" slogans."

No, it was not a slogan of the French propaganda. This sentence was the title of an article written in L’Oeuvre by Marcel Déat. This man was a socialist (but not SFIO) and a pacifist. After July 1940, he became collaborationist.

Regards
Igor

P.S: as you can see, I'm French. So excuse-me, I don't speak english very well. [img]redface.gif[/img]
  #30 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 02:45 PM
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my english sucks either
  #31 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 03:10 PM
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Off course I admire success of Free french and courage of Gen. De Gaulle. He is also a hero here in Poland. The biggest streets in Poland has his name. But in 1940 he was one and lonely fighting for survival and pride of french. I can not understand we Poland gave over 1 mln men army to fight against Germans an every fronts in Europe.
But what we get in return?
= SOVIET regime
Our Allies sold us in Yalta. We never forget Napoleon and our fight against Russia, Austria and Prussia. It was long time ago. . But must not forget why we had to fight against Spain in Samonsierra and after that our soldiers were send to fight on Haiti against revolting slaves.
But anyway for Poles the allience with Napoleon gave us hope. We never lost our hope. And now we have free, normal, democratic country in EU. and sometimes we just dont udnerstnad why You French forget about loyalty and remembrence.
We know that decision about Iraq was difficult. But the probloem its more complicated than Oil. must not forget it. Stabilising country is not easy job but someone has to do it. We know what it means to help your Allie (USA)

that pisses me off about the french=
lack of loyalty

There was another thing:
before the Iraq war oland was a candidate for joining EU.
When Poland supported America's move against Saddam regime and sent its troops to war
Mr. Chirac, in an unusual outburst to reporters in Brussels that Poland expressing their support for the United States as "childish," "dangerous" and missing "an opportunity to shut up."
maybe I wil end this explanation wtith the words of our Foreign minister:

Adam Rotfeld, foreign minister of Poland, the largest of the European Union candidates, said, "France has a right to define its own policy and we have to respect it," but he added that France must offer the same respect to Poland.

Regards

Stanchev


Our history is more complicated then you think.
Without Gen. De Gaulle France
  #32 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 04:02 PM
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"Our history is more complicated then you think.
"
I've never said the contrary ...
  #33 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stanchev:
my english sucks either
In the words of a good friend of many years who was in military intelligence:

Speekiing forrteen languages anglish de beest!

You need make no excuses for your proficency in English. The occasional post in French or Polish might be an interesting challenge for the rest of us!
  #34 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2005, 10:03 PM
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Dziekuję za dobry dowcip
Gratulacje!!!
  #35 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 01:51 AM
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Here we go! Now we'll have a childlish discussion about how evil and lousy France is, in contrast to pious and mighty Poland!

Quote:
1. France lost her colonial possessions primarily as a result of WW 2.

2. France remained a military power only at the pleasure of the Allies and in particular, the US. Had the US and Britain decided that Vichy France was not worth bringing into the fold, so to speak, France would have been a conquered nation and liberated without significant participation on the Allied side post 1940.
It was only with US assistance that France was able to reestablish herself as a military force during the war. Without US aid France would have langusihed as a minor player in the war.

3. France's dilitance in politics post 1940 did nothing to increase her stability, stature or, trust with her allies. Personages like Petain, Darlan, Giruad and, de Gaulle did little but make the US and Britain wish they had never struck a deal with France to begin with.
These personages fought among each other over who would speak for France, made outrageous claims (Giruad demanded Eisenhower name him "Surpreme Commander of all Allied Forces in North Africa just before Torch as but one example) and performed self serving acts of military stupidity repeatedly (during Nordwind in Jan 1945 deGaulle threatened to use the French Army to attack Allied troops if the US withdrew from Strasbourg for example) throughout the war.

4. France remained politically fractured and weak during and after the war. If the US and Britain had not included them in the UN security council there was little France could really have done to change that. The same goes with the partition of Germany.

5. France's economy was largely wrecked by the war and post war socialism did nothing to restore it to anywhere close to being a competitive world power.

If anything, France came out of WW 2 a second rate power with little political clout in the post war world. By any measure, this was a defeat.
Absolutely agree, T. A. Good post.

Quote:
1.French forces bombarded Gibraltar and shot at British in Dakar 1940( same time Britain was defending the only free land in Europe from the Nazis)
That was after the Royal Navy bombarded the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir, which resulted in the loss of several hundred French lives.

However, the French don't cry about that like babies saying how wicked those damned British traitors are!

Quote:
2.French Vichy forces shot at the first US troops landings in 1942 in Algeria and Morroco in North Africa. I believe the idea of French troops fighting Americans who have come to liberate Europe from the Nazi's is dumbfounding!
There was a war going on, and France was playing a hedious rôle between two fires. France couldn't really thrust Germany nor the Western Allies (specially after Mers-el-Kebir). That's why Vichy ordered to defend North Africa.

However, you are forgetting that those men who shot at the invading Americans and British, soon dropped their weaponry and joined them. Those very same men would later gallantly fight the Nazis in Italy and the Western Front.

Quote:
3.French Railway assisted the Nazis in transporting Jews to the gas chambers of the Third Reich
Now, before we start talking about France's horrible rôle during the Holocaust, let's take into account that France's collaboration in the final solution (which, no matter how extense or partial, still costed 90.000 Jewish lives) has been recognised and apologised for. France knows that she helped killing 90.000 of her own citizens, she is ashamed of that and she has accepted her responsabilities; unlike some other countries which have blamed the Germans for it all...

Quote:
3.French Railway assisted the Nazis in transporting Jews to the gas chambers of the Third Reich
Indeed. But so did Belgian, Hungarian, Dutch, Polish, Czech railways, among many others...

Quote:
In my opinion.
You can measure by the way you defend your country and your sacrifice. Paris was never defended. The so called uprising took place hours before American tanks entered the city.
For me it’s a real sign of cowardice
You have the right to express your opinion, but it doesn't mean it's right nor that members around here pay attention to it...

The Battle for France was lost beforehand, even more after the breakthrough at the Meuse. There was no point in defending Paris and subjecting one of the most culturally important cities in the world to the fate of Warsaw or Rotterdam.

Quote:
French VOLUNTEERS : (a total of about 45000 volunteer men in military uniform).
And what's the point? Are you going to mention the Finnish, Belgian, Dutch, Dannish, Croatian, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish volunteers as well?

Stanchev, WWII is far more complicated than just label countries as 'good one', 'bad one'... but I guess I ask too much...

Quote:
I remember french propaganda before september 1st 1939 "We dont want to die for Danzig (polish town)" slogans.
Indeed. The French were not willing to die for Danzing or Warsaw. What did they care about the Poles? They cared for themselves, as did the Poles, who wouldn't have died for the Czechs, even if they knew they were the next on the list.

In fact, you seem to forget that 1,4 million French had died just 20 years before, which had not yet been replaced. 1/3 of the country had been devastated, the economy and the overseas empire was a wreck... the consequences and the trauma of WWI was too great to forget.

Again, France was too affected by many things in 1939 to do anything, but being defeated...

Quote:
You did not even try to die for Paris.
Still, some 100.000 French were killed and 200.000 wounded in the Battle of France in summer 1940.

Quote:
But what we get in return?
= SOVIET regime
Our Allies sold us in Yalta.
Same stupid statement as always.

Independent Poland = WWIII.

NO THANKS.

Quote:
Our history is more complicated then you think.
And so is French history... and British history, and Russian history, and Chinese, American, Spanish...
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 02:03 AM
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I also want to add something, not to prove anything, but just to show something obvious.

The three French (or partly French) in these boards have openly accepted France's military incompetence, collaboration in the Holocaust (however small or big is irrelevant to how awful it is) and active collaboration with the III Reich's war effort. We all accept that France's contribution to Victory was important but small, and very far from being decisive.

On the other hand, Stanchev, Polak Polski and other of our Polish members have shown a completely different attitude towards their own country, making arrogant, insulting and biased posts; claiming the 'vital' rôle of Poland in the Enigma matter, the Battle of Britain or the Battle of Monte Cassino, the complete inocence of the Polish people in the Holocaust (which destroyed 90% of Polish Jews) or how Poland was betrayed and sold by Allied nations.

That's all.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 02:20 AM
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Here we go again...

(Grabs Stalhelm and runs for nearest foxhole...)
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by General der Infanterie Friedrich H:
On the other hand, Stanchev, Polak Polski and other of our Polish members have shown a completely different attitude towards their own country, making arrogant, insulting and biased posts; claiming the 'vital' rôle of Poland in the Enigma matter, the Battle of Britain or the Battle of Monte Cassino, the complete inocence of the Polish people in the Holocaust (which destroyed 90% of Polish Jews) or how Poland was betrayed and sold by Allied nations.

That's all. [/QB]
How long will you post those lies about our so called incompetence.
Proposition : try to face the truth about the french cowerdice in II WW . I know its difficult for you. You live in a dream world. Instead you prefer to write new history because you think that some stupid people will believe you. For me you are just some kind of another revisionist who does not want to know the facts about Monte Cassino, Holocaust, Battle of Britain and Enigma matter."

I know that France's history was difficult and you can not live with that. But it makes no excuse to spread lies around here.

You have no right to teach Poles their history . they no it better.
and Please dont dare to compare France to Poland. and their fate during the war.
yes it was way harder. the way you even could not imagine.

For French massacre in Oradour was a tragedy. For Poland it was every day life.
French resistance got 100 times more equipment from Allies. Even during Warsaw Uprising we could not get any help from our forces fighting in the West. Sosabowski Reguest was denied.
Maybe try to write to mr David Irving. He will understand you.


1.During the 1939 German invasion of Poland, special action squads of SS and police (the Einsatzgruppen) were deployed in the rear, arresting or killing those civilians caught resisting the Germans or considered capable of doing so as determined by their position and social status. Tens of thousands of wealthy landowners, clergymen, and members of the intelligentsia—government officials, teachers, doctors, dentists, officers, journalists, and others (both Poles and Jews)—were either murdered in mass executions or sent to prisons and concentration camps. German army units and "self-defense" forces composed of Volksdeutsche also participated in executions of civilians. In many instances, these executions were reprisal actions that held entire communities collectively responsible for the killing of Germans.

During the summer of 1940, the SS rounded up members of the intelligentsia in the General Government. In this so-called A-B Aktion (Extraordinary Pacification Operation), several thousand university professors, teachers, priests, and others were shot. The mass murders occurred outside Warsaw, in the Kampinos forest near Palmiry, and inside the city at the Pawiak prison.

2.As part of wider efforts to destroy Polish culture, the Germans closed or destroyed universities, schools, museums, libraries, and scientific laboratories. They demolished hundreds of monuments to national heroes. To prevent the birth of a new generation of educated Poles, German officials decreed that Polish children's schooling end after a few years of elementary education. "The sole goal of this schooling is to teach them simple arithmetic, nothing above the number 500; writing one's name; and the doctrine that it is divine law to obey the Germans. . . . I do not think that reading is desirable," Himmler wrote in his May 1940 memorandum.

3.In the annexed lands, the Nazis' goal was complete "Germanization" to assimilate the territories politically, culturally, socially, and economically into the German Reich. They applied this policy most rigorously in western incorporated territories—the so-called Wartheland. There, the Germans closed even elementary schools where Polish was the language of instruction. They renamed streets and cities so that Lodz became Litzmannstadt, for example. They also seized tens of thousands of Polish enterprises, from large industrial firms to small shops, without payment to the owners. Signs posted in public places warned: "Entrance is forbidden to Poles, Jews, and dogs."

4.The Roman Catholic Church was suppressed throughout Poland because historically it had led Polish nationalist forces fighting for Poland's independence from outside domination. The Germans treated the Church most harshly in the annexed regions, as they systematically closed churches there; most priests were either killed, imprisoned, or deported to the General Government. The Germans also closed seminaries and convents, persecuting monks and nuns. Between 1939 and 1945 an estimated 3,000 members of the Polish clergy were killed; of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps, 787 of them at Dachau

5.The Germanization of the annexed lands also included an ambitious program to resettle Germans from the Baltic and other regions on farms and other homes formerly occupied by Poles and Jews. Beginning in October 1939, the SS began to expel Poles and Jews from the Wartheland and the Danzig corridor and transport them to the General Government. By the end of 1940, the SS had expelled 325,000 people without warning and plundered their property and belongings. Many elderly people and children died en route or in makeshift transit camps such as those in the towns of Potulice, Smukal, and Torun. In 1941, the Germans expelled 45,000 more people, but they scaled backed the program after the invasion of the Soviet Union in late June 1941. Trains used for resettlement were more urgently needed to transport soldiers and supplies to the front.


6.In late 1942 and in 1943, the SS also carried out massive expulsions in the General Government, uprooting 110,000 Poles from 300 villages in the Zamosc-Lublin region. Families were torn apart as able-bodied teens and adults were taken for forced labor and elderly, young, and disabled persons were moved to other localities. Tens of thousands were also imprisoned in Auschwitz or Majdanek concentration camps.


Seizure of Polish children by the Germans
(Select to view)
During the Zamosc expulsions the Germans seized many children from their parents to be racially screened for possible adoption by German parents in the SS Lebensborn ("Fount of Life") program. As many as 4,454 children chosen for Germanization were given German names, forbidden to speak Polish, and reeducated in SS or other Nazi institutions, where many died of hunger or disease. Few ever saw their parents again. Many more children were rejected as unsuitable for Germanization after failing to measure up to racial scientists' criteria for establishing "Aryan" ancestry; they were sent to children's homes or killed, some of them at Auschwitz of phenol injections. An estimated total of 50,000 children were kidnapped in Poland, the majority taken from orphanages and foster homes in the annexed lands. Infants born to Polish women deported to Germany as farm and factory laborers were also usually taken from the mothers and subjected to Germanization. (If an examination of the father and mother suggested that a "racially valuable" child might not result from the union, abortion was compulsory.)

7. Throughout the occupation, the Germans applied a ruthless retaliation policy in an attempt to destroy resistance. As the Polish resistance grew bolder in 1943 after the German defeat at Stalingrad, German reprisal efforts escalated. The Germans destroyed dozens of villages, killing men, women, and children. Public executions by hanging or shooting in Warsaw and other cities occurred daily. During the war the Germans destroyed at least 300 villages in Poland.

8.Between 1939 and 1945 at least 1.5 million Polish citizens were transported to the Reich for labor, most of them against their will. Many were teenaged boys and girls. Although Germany also used forced laborers from western Europe, Poles, along with other eastern Europeans viewed as inferior, were subject to especially harsh discriminatory measures. They were forced to wear identifying purple P's sewn to their clothing, subjected to a curfew, and banned from public transportation. While the actual treatment accorded factory workers or farm hands often varied depending on the individual employer, Polish laborers as a rule were compelled to work longer hours for lower wages than western Europeans, and in many cities they lived in segregated barracks behind barbed wire. Social relations with Germans outside work were forbidden, and sexual relations with them were considered "racial defilement" punishable by death. During the war hundreds of Polish men were executed for their relations with German women.

9.Poles were prisoners in nearly every camp in the extensive camp system in German-occupied Poland and the Reich. A major camp complex at Stutthof, east of Danzig, existed from September 2, 1939, to war's end, and
an estimated 20,000 Poles died there as a result of executions, hard labor, and harsh conditions. Auschwitz
(Oswiecim) became the main concentration camp for Poles after the arrival there on June 14, 1940, of 728 men transported from an overcrowded prison at Tarnow. By March 1941, 10,900 prisoners were registered at the camp, most of them Poles. In September 1941, 200 ill prisoners, most of them Poles, along with 650 Soviet prisoners of war, were killed in the first gassing experiments at Auschwitz. Beginning in 1942, Auschwitz's prisoner population became much more diverse, as Jews and other "enemies of the state" from all over German-occupied Europe were deported to the camp.


10.The Polish scholar Franciszek Piper, the chief historian of Auschwitz, estimates that 140,000 to 150,000 Poles were brought to that camp between 1940 and 1945, and that 70,000 to 75,000 died there as victims of executions, of cruel medical experiments, and of starvation and disease. Some 100,000 Poles were deported to Majdanek, and tens of thousands of them died there. An estimated 20,000 Poles died at Sachsenhausen, 20;000 at Gross-Rosen, 30,000 at Mauthausen, 17,000 at Neuengamme, 10,000 at Dachau, and 17,000 at Ravensbrueck. In addition, victims in the tens of thousands were executed or died in the thousands of other camps-including special children's camps such as Lodz and its subcamp, Dzierzazn—and in prisons and other places of detention within and outside Poland.

11.In response to the German occupation, Poles organized one of the largest underground movements in Europe with more than 300 widely supported political and military groups and subgroups. Despite military defeat, the
Polish government itself never surrendered. In 1940 a Polish government-in-exile became based in London. Resistance groups inside Poland set up underground courts for trying collaborators and others and clandestine schools in response to the Germans' closing of many educational institutions. The universities of Warsaw, Cracow, and Lvov all operated clandestinely. Officers of the regular Polish army headed an underground armed force, the "Home Army" (Armia Krajowa—AK). After preliminary organizational activities, including the training of fighters and hoarding of weapons, the AK activated partisan units in many parts of Poland in 1943. A Communist underground, the "People's Guard" (Gwardia Ludowa), also formed in 1942, but its military strength and influence were comparatively weak.

12.With the approach of the Soviet army imminent, the AK launched an uprising in Warsaw against the German army on August 1, 1944. After 63 days of bitter fighting, the Germans quashed the insurrection. The Soviet army provided little assistance to the Poles. Nearly 250,000 Poles, most of them civilians, lost their lives. The Germans deported hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children to concentration camps. Many others were transported to the Reich for forced labor. Acting on Hitler's orders, German forces reduced the city to rubble, greatly extending the destruction begun during their suppression of the earlier armed uprising by Jewish fighters resisting deportation from the Warsaw ghetto in April 1943.


CONCLUSION

The Nazi terror was, in scholar Norman Davies's words, "much fiercer and more protracted in Poland than anywhere in Europe." Reliable statistics for the total number of Poles who died as a result of Nazi German policies do not exist. Many others were victims of the 1939-1941 Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and of deportations to Central Asia and Siberia. Records are incomplete, and the Soviet control of Poland for 50 years after the war impeded independent scholarship.

Sources:

Ascherson, Neil. The Struggles for Poland (New York, 1987).

Davies, Norman. God's Playground: A History of Poland, Vol. 2 (New York, 1982).

Gross, Jan Tomasz. Polish Society under German Occupation: The Generalgouvernement, 1939-1944 (Princeton, NJ, 1979).

Hrabar, Roman et al. The Fate of Polish Children during the Last War (Warsaw, 1981).

Kielar, Wieslaw. Anus Mundi: 1,500 Days in Auschwitz-Birkenau, trans. from German by Susanne Flatauer. (New York, 1980).

Klukowski, Zygmunt, Diary from the Years of Occupation 1939-44, trans. from Polish by George Klukowski (Urbana, IL, 1993).

Lukacs, Richard C. Out of the Inferno: Poles Remember the Holocaust. (Lexington, KY, 1989).
  #39 (permalink)  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 08:19 AM
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This thread is entitled "France in WW2" but we seem to be heatedly discussing Poland (yet again). The thread is argumentative & off-topic and therefore closed.

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