With the terrible loses sustained by US forces during D-Day on Omaha, I've always wondered why there was no coordinated close air support when the troops were pinned down by machine gun fire. When you consider the allies had total control of the skies, fighter aircraft could have strafed or "dive bomb" enemy positions at will. I'm pretty sure that marines and navy fighters worked together successfully during the island hopping campaign in the Pacific. If you think about it, it's just blitzkrieg the Nazis used just 5 yrs earlier. Anyway, those destroyers that risked running aground to provide artillery at Omaha had the right idea.

That's a very fair point but I think, as with Arnhem, the fear was that tactical air support when opposing forces were physically that close to each other would lead to severe losses among Allied troops.

In WWII, air attack could not achieve pin-point precision & then only if minimal flak was known to be present ( eg Dams, Amiens Raids, etc ). Closing on a relatively small target at 250-300 mph meant that some degree of saturation would be needed to be effective. Even later during the Normandy campaign when 2 TAF's 'cab-rank' tactic was perfected, Allied ground troops kept a respectful distance - usually at least a mile if possible ( eg at Falaise ).

Additionally, the Naval gunners' air recognition was notoriously unreliable throughout the war. Overflying, at low-level, the colossal firepower of the assorted naval vessels lying off the Normandy beaches would not have been a popular prospect for the RAF/USAAF.....

IMHO, the only completely effective, pin-point support available in WWII was from ground-based artillery acting with reliable Forward Observers; as eventually was the case for example at Arnhem.

( And a very warm welcome to the discussion forum, BTW ! [img]smile.gif[/img] )

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I suppose the best chance for Air Support was before the actual landings. Given the early dawn light plus the quality of the Bombers accuracy (as shown at Point du Hoe) this would probably have been a waste anyway.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

In fact, early on D-Day, RAF Bomber Command flew 1,211 sorties to the Normandy beaches, with a further 1,425 from the 8th USAAF.

These operations were principally aimed at the known heavy Coastal batteries such as those at Fontenay, La Pernelle, Longues, Maisy, Merville, Mont Fleury, Pointe-du-Hoc,Ouistreham and St-Martin-de-Varreville.These would have represented the greatest threat to the actual invasion fleet, and the landing craft. Unfortunately, as the winds had dropped, virtually the entire area was cloud-covered and bombing was via Oboe . Even so, considerable accuracy was achieved as can be seen at Longues today - but the bunkers were virtually impervious to overhead HE bombs.

On Omaha, most of the opposition came from light/medium MGs in trench systems, plus well-hidden concrete emplacements enfilading the beach. The latter - still there today - were virtually impregnable to aerial and naval bombardment.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Talking about close air support; The USAAF also dropped a great amount of bombs just before the American lines in Normandy, thus is a tactical role. In fact, they dropped some right on top of them, killing many of the 30th Inf DIv, including the commanding General.

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

The 8th USAAF came to be referred to by the ground troops as the 'American Luftwaffe'.....

But the use of strategic bombers as ground support was fraught with difficulty. Canadian positions were accidentally bombed prior to the Falaise operations : the Canadian troops were using yellow smoke identification markers, the RAF were bombing on...yellow Target Indicators

[img]graemlins/poppy.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Tanks would have done the job had they been available and mineclearing tanks would have been better but they were not used. Some units that landed on Omaha got off the beach with only a few light casualties while others suffered terribly. Mines were a big problem for the attacking troops. minefields could not be cleared under fire and regular infantry units either did not like the prospect of lifting mines or were not trained to do it. Either way, many units simply rushed in a frontal attack (a preferred method of infantry assault in the US army) and paid the price.

Also, the rocket launcher landing craft fired their rockets too soon and did not hit the beach. Those rockets would have done much to detonate mines and to provide cratering of the beach for cover for the troops. They failed in their task.

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If dogs don't go to heaven, I'd like to go where they go.

And what about Hobbart's funnies? Do you know why so many of them sank at Omaha, whilst they did make it in the other beaches?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Freddy - The American's did not use Hobart's Funnies, 79th Armoured Division. Bradley et al rejected there use. The DD, used by both the British and the Americans, equipped the assualt tank battalions for the invasion. For example, at Sword beach the 27th Armoured Brigade had DD tanks in its lead battalions with wading equipped Sherman in its other two battalions. The 27th were not an organic part of 79th Armoured. This was similar with the Americans.

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Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

The DD tanks arrived on time at the other beache and, where supported by flail tanks, were able to move through the mined areas.
The official reason for not using the funnies was that it would take too long to train the crews to use the churchill tanks but the flails were mounted on shermans. A few days of training should have been sufficient to at least get them ashore and moving up.

But on Omaha, the DD's were launched in high seas, 8 miles offshore, EIGHT MILES! and many simply sank as soon as they dropped off the ramp. The seas were simply too riugh. It has been suggested that the US navy wallahs were overly worried about shore emplaced guns and that's why they let the DD's go so far out. One squadron of DD's was carried in to the beach and landed but they arrived late, after much of the killing had happened. It doesn't take very long for a MG to mow down a few hundred men so if there's no tank support for 15-20 minutes it ain't pretty.

Even when they got ashore they couldn't move inland for fear of mines and anti-tank guns. Most stayed hull down in the surf and crept up with the tide.

The planning for Omaha was less than optimum and the US general staff should take blame for that. But the Navy let the men down big time. The artillery didn't do the job, the LCT(rockets) shot their bolt too soon and sarpered off back to blighty for a hot cuppa, and the LCT's carrying the DD's didn't have anyone with brains to know that 8 miles is a long way to swim a tank in a gale.

Read Chester Wilmot's "The Strugle for Europe" for a good account of D-Day and a comparison of the beaches. Most of the infantry landing on the first wave got a hot reception and there were problems everywhere (as might be expected) but the Omaha fiasco would never have happened if the US Navy had done their job.

BTW, the two destroyers that finally came in real close and took on the shore batteries were both British, I've heard. Can anyone confirm that? Which two were they?

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If dogs don't go to heaven, I'd like to go where they go.

According to the British Official History, from about 07:30 onwards at Omaha eight USN and three RN destroyers assisted the bogged-down ground forces with suppressing fire.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

If you read the book "D-Day, June 6 1944" by Stephen Ambrose, it will tell you. About 100 bombers set out for Normandy, but they saw the allies down there [img]graemlins/gi.gif[/img] and were afraid to drop. Also, there basically were no fighters, because it was primaraly a bombing mission.

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

In fact, the combined AEAF flew 1,547 sorties in total over the entire beachhead area during D-Day.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hey, nobodys perfect!

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

But still, read the book I showed you.

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

Ambrose? No, thanks…

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

In fact, the first bomb dropped on D-Day was dropped by a 605 Sqn Mossie. No fighter in the strictest sense but many fighter-bombers really let loose....

And yes, I would refrain from Ambrose as a major source on D-Day as well. A great book (one of many) which touches upon the subject is OVERLORD, General Pete Quesada and the triumph of tactical Air Power in World War II

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

there where still a few fighters. not many, mind you. close quarters combat is an issue,as is accuracy.

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I hid my brain and forgot where I put it...

I think it is quite clear that Mr. Ambrose book(s) on the subject should not be trusted. would highly suggest many of the individual US 8th/9thAF fighter histories and bomb group histories such as the B-26 units in print........

E ♪

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Rip it up !

This one isn't one isn't a story, its a factual book.

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

huh ? ah re-type your sentance ok ? Ambrose is and always will be trash........

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Rip it up !

Read what I said. It's a book about D-Day, telling about planning,fighting, and afterwards. It tells about the British, Canadians, and Americans, along with the germans.

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

I remember reading something in Ambrose's "Citizen Soldiers" similar to what the Gen. Patton said was in "D-Day". I don't know how you can write a book without checking the facts.

Erich, don't you think you are going a little too far by calling Ambrose's work trash? Even though some of the facts can't be trusted, I still find some of his books to be good reads. When I read his books I usually don't pay attention to the facts or statistics. I read it like a novel instead. Well that's just my 2 cents.

Amen to that!

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The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

i play historiclly acurrate v-games. like brothers in arms

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I hid my brain and forgot where I put it...