hi everyone
what would you do after the battle of stalingrad if you are hitler? is there anything you can do to avoid defeat without surrender?

Go on the defensive and fight a war of attrition bleeding the Soviets dry.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

yea, Pz has a good point, i myself would probrably retreat, and defend germany with my army...

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

do not forget the tank and plane production of S.U. is more than Germany's and S.U. has the aid of the U.S. Unfortunately for the Germans, their emphasis on protection and gunpower compromised the mobility and reliability of their tanks. In 1943, for example, Germany manufactured only 5,966 tanks, as compared to 29,497 for the US, 7,476 for Britain, and an estimated 20,000 for the Soviet Union. offense is the best defense

If I was AH do the only correct thing blow my brains out for a failed invasion.

From the point of view from the Army bring about an end to the war before hundreds more life's are wasted.

PS Welcome Ironcross.

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Regards, Richard

You can fight a war of attrition with the Soviets, but I doubt you could win

Perhaps you meant a flexible defense, but remember the Soviets were no dopes and had already learnt a lot of unpleasant tricks.

Of course after Stalingrad the Soviets exaggerated somewhat and Manstein took the opportunity to serve his Backhand, but a few months later at Kursk somebody fooled somebody.

To reply to the original topic, I don't think that was possible any longer as the Axis had no resources for that any longer.

I agree eith you Za and I also think that it is true that offence is the best defence.

But due to the fact that the Soviets has made in Stalingrad one of the most effective counterstrike in military History, If I was Hilter i would have begun to worry and try to save Germany first...

Thank you

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"Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily"
Napoleon Bonaparte

Correct Zu, Germany was in no position to successfully go on the offensive and would be better to take a flexible defensive stance with elastic lines allowing the German forces to pull back against any Russian offensive, pull them in and close in with pincer movements thus destroying the units caught. Do this enough times and the war then becomes a stalemate. Germany was strong enough at the time to conduct this type of warfare. As for resources, Germany did produce enough arms all the way until 45 to conduct this type or defensive warfare. It just wasted it on it's useless offenses (Kursk, Ardennes, Hungary, etc).

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

would the outcome be different if spain joined Axis?

Quite frankly even so I don't think the Germans after 1942 had the resources to do this more than a couple of times. Even in the great battle of Kursk the mobile component was made of only a very few Pz and Pzgren divisions. The Reich was able to mobilise only a few Fire Brigades, no more than that. Every time they did one of these flexible defense tricks they would have to surrender a sizable deal of troops and ground, and they would be running out of both at a dreadful rate. Even with their rigid defenses as they were, in 1944 they had their backs to Poland and the Carpathians, there was nowhere else to retreat to.

And the name's Za!

Most likely it would be even worse! A few more thousand kilometers of prime invasion-type coasline, a people recently divided by a civil war and totally exhausted, another ally which could not supply itself so another big drain in the Reich resources, a cantankerous leader - a with more balls than Mussolini had a big mouth making an obstreperous ally. Result: disaster first class

Remember when Hitler held his Hendaye conference with Franco in October 1940, after being treated to an egregious dose of Spanish hauteur (F. kept Hitler waiting!) and hearing an impossible to fulfill lot of demands, H. said something like he would prefer to pull a number of teeth than meeting with Franco again!

If I was Hitler? Well I think I would stop making decisions and leave it to someone more capable like Manstein or Rommel.

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If indeed offense is the best defense, why didn't the Russians attack at Kursk? They certainly had enough of everything to do it.
I believe you need to do what the Russians did. Observe the situation, then decide whether to attack or defend. Not just attack, attack, etc..
You will outrun your supply eventually, and those routes need protection.
The old collapsing bag, fighting defense would be, I believe, the only option left to Germany after Stalingrad.
Mixed with deliberate weakness in pockets to lure overly aggressive units into encirclement.
Keep strong mobile reserve units (like they did)(but too late) of Tigers, Panthers, Elephants, Nashorns, (not lost at Kursk in minefields) to plug penetrations.
Don't waste your airforce! Use it to smash attacks with bombs on identified targets (rather than saturation)(as in attack).
Use your fighters to thwart their attack planes. Save your anti-aircraft to use as anti-aircraft/anti-tank/anti-personel (I'm thinking quad 20mm/88 here) in a defensive role, not in offense.
Let the enemy come to you, Lure/drive them to exactly the place you're ready for them (with your artillery).
Get semi hull down, (troops and equipment) but always have an avenue of retirement to a fall back position prepaired.
Don't waste time building extensive fortifications. Quote from Patton..."Anything built by man can be overcome by man."
Keep supplied!
Do not give a stand or die orders, until your house in in sight.
Make use of as many mines as you can find/produce/steal/borrow/ or fake.
Make use of natural barriers whenever possible.
Keep moral up, by all methods, and I don't mean shoot your own troops.
Stack em up until you run out of bullets.

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Morbius, Morbius! Something is approaching from the Southwest. It is now quite close.

Russia wins any fight, too many people, too much logistical support back home. Politically I doubt that anything short of unconditional surrender would have been accepted. The Versaille Treaty would have looked generous.

For Germany, a military coop which captures Hitler and his high ranking supporters and offers to end the fighting might have worked.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

I agree with Rodi re Spain being a costly and ineffective ally. Over what has already been said, Franco was in a delicate position as his opposition in Spain was subdued, not removed. It would have been very dangerous for him to send forces out of Spain and alter the balance of power at home. Hitler is quoted saying Franco expressed extravagant terms for any prospect of joining the Axis. To be expected because Franco didn’t want to join anyone’s’ war as win or lose it would have cost him an independent Spain.

While he didn’t want the Allies invading Spain, he didn’t want Hitler doing it either. IMHO what Franco chiefly had in common with Hitler and Mussolini was fighting Communism for control of the State. I don’t see this in itself automatically made him the same as Hitler. In the early war years, to placate Hitler, he agreed to ‘send’ Spanish volunteers to fight with Germany against the Soviets. In 1941 about 40’000 went to form the Blue Division in the Germany Army - 250th Infantry Division. Being volunteers they fought very well, and in 1943 when (after pressure from the Allies), Spain withdrew them, some 6’000 elected to remain in the Heer and form the Blue Legion, and later - in smaller numbers - the Ezquerra Brigade in the SS, continuing to the end of the war.

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Hitler could have promised anything to get Spain join the war but once again-did he need to fulfill the promises straight away?? AH stunned by Franco´s demands? he could have promised all that Franco wanted and later on say "Sorry it´s in the production phase.." or anything like that. And then it would have Franco whose tooth would have been pulled out.

We know that Canaris was somehow involved but whether he made Franco or Hitler change his mind-that´s another tricky question. And whose meaning it served, Canaris´s?

And definitely AH was not looking for the Spanish to join the war as much as he was looking for a way for his troops to attack Gibraltar. That was a key question that should have been decided there and then- if he was going to fight succesfully in the Mediterranean!

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v. Manstein ok, but Rommel would take 2 PzII, one PzIII and 2 SdKfz 222 and try to reach Vladivostok in one go! Definitely the wrong choice [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Za Rodinu:

Quote:

And the name's Za!

Ah! Forgive me oh great one! [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I suppose it´s already too late...the NKVD is on its way...Just don´t open the door to anyone, PzJgr!

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Franco was definitely not the kind of sucker to be appeased by Hitler's promises. Whatever terms he agreed he would demand punctillious delivery on promises or else. He was a feet on the ground character, not Chamberlain at all. Hitler danced to his music, not the other way round.

Yes, Za, but could Franco refuse his help once the first trains would cross the border of what he required? Even could make this really "mean" and just send the trains coming from the USSR straight to Spain....Stalin helping Franco without Josif knowing it (??!)..

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When Hitler thought co-operation of Spain was assured, he did indeed sent Canaris to obtain final formal consent from Franco, as Canaris was known to be a good friend of Franco’s. Canaris returned with an indifferent answer, leaning towards the negative.

In his work on Hitler, John Toland sites a post war meeting in Franco’s presence when the Marquis de Valdeglesias asked Gen. Vigon (a close friend of Canaris), if it was true the Admiral worked against Spanish interests? At this point Franco lounged forward and declared that Canaris was; ”an excellent friend of Spain”, thus confirming suspicions that while Canaris delivered Hitler’s rhetoric as ordered, he went on to council Franco to the contrary.

Toland also puts forward an interesting observation. He is of the opinion that much of the Arab world would have taken little persuasion to ally with Hitler because of a common anti-Jewish stance. He further suggests this would have the opposite reaction from Franco, who was part Jewish?

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