Sealion: nazis ready to face the navy? - Page 3

lwd · #51 (**permalink**) July 23rd, 2008, 03:16 AM

Well some of the barges (~1/3?) were powered. Don't see that the British would have bothered to bring in anything from elsewhere other than possibly Gibraltar. I'm not sure the initial plan was to even commit the capital ships. There were a tremendous number of armed trawlers on both sides. With the British having quite few more as I recall. Operating close to their bases and with out the multi tasking the British were in quite a bit better shape. And talk about mutli tasking the LW would have been overwhelmed even without opposition.

lwd · #52 (**permalink**) July 23rd, 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

Had the Luftwaffe had gain control then those naval assets would make nice target practice for the Luftwaffe

On what do you base that? Historically the LW was not particularly good especially at this time at attacking naval vessels under way and with plenty of AA ammo. Then there's the optempo that Sea Lion would have forced on them.

Quote:

plus i don't remember where but i always thought that the Aircraft Carriers, Battlehips and Heavy Cruisers would be quarunteened from anti-invasion interdiction, they were needed to evacuate the Government and the Royal Family.

There is a persistant rumor on the net but it has not been substantiated and has been attacked. I think it's the inappropriate combination of a couple of plans. One was not to commit the capital units immediately. The other was to evacuate if necessary.

Quote:

This leaves just the smaller cruisers and destroyers to act as anti-invasion interdiction. Plus another factor in all of this is that of the substantial war materiel loss of the British during the Norwegian and French campaigns this includes

In a sense it doesn't matter how much they lost what matters is that they have more in Britain than the Germans can land or support which they did.

Quote:

several hundred vessels

I'm curious about this where do you come up with "several hundred vessels"?

Quote:

At the time it was estimated that it would take at least 6 to 12 months for the Army to recover enough to repell any attempt at invasion, some estimates i have read suggest that as little as 6 German divisions could have taken Britain (now even to me this is silly).

Right after Dunkirk if they could land intact and be supported perhaps. The estimate may have been one made right after the disaster of Dunkirk as well. The artillery for instance had pretty much been replenished for the troops in Britain by the end of July.

ozjohn39 · #53 (**permalink**) July 23rd, 2008, 10:02 PM

von Rundstedt,

"Had the Luftwaffe had gain control then those naval assets would make nice target practice for the Luftwaffe,"

How many ships, charging around at 30 knots, did the LW manage to sink in WW2?

"plus i don't remember where but i always thought that the Aircraft Carriers, Battlehips and Heavy Cruisers would be quarunteened from anti-invasion interdiction,"

The very reason the RN 'Home Fleet' EXISTED was to DEFEND the HOME Island!!!!! If the invasion was on, then EVERY ship would have been used no matter what.

" they were needed to evacuate the Government and the Royal Family."

NEVER! (anyway how many ships would you need???) In the darkest days, the Queen was advised to arrange evacuation of the Royal children to Canada. Her reply was,

"the children would never leave without me, I would never leave without the King, and he would NEVER leave"

This leaves just the smaller cruisers and destroyers to act as anti-invasion interdiction. Plus another factor in all of this is that of the substantial war materiel loss of the British during the Norwegian and French campaigns this includes

67,000 vehicles
thousands of artillery pieces
440+ tanks
1 million tonnes of supplies
several hundred aircraft
several hundred vessels
45,000+ pow's

You obviously know little of the situation in mid 1940. Britain had the RAF still UNdefeated and getting stronger, the RN Home Fleet was waiting and the Britsih Army had a MILLION men with rifles and Brens etc.

'SeaLion' would have FAILED dismally, and germany would have suffered 100% losses.

"At the time it was estimated that it would take at least 6 to 12 months for the Army to recover enough to repell any attempt at invasion, some estimates i have read suggest that as little as 6 German divisions could have taken Britain (now even to me this is silly)."

ALL of it is silly!

OJ

lwd · #54 (**permalink**) July 23rd, 2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by von Rundstedt

...
This leaves just the smaller cruisers and destroyers to act as anti-invasion interdiction. ...

Missed this earlier amongst so much else. The ideal vessels for countering the invasion fleet would probably have been DD, light cruisers, and AA cruisers. I guess you could call the latter two small cruisers although some of the British light cruisers were not particularity small.

JCFalkenbergIII · #55 (**permalink**) July 23rd, 2008, 11:13 PM

Not to mention the MTBs,MGBs,Armed Trawlers, Minesweepers and other smaller armed vessels. If you havent noticed John. Vonnie tends to try his best at some way making the Germans the victors in these "What If?" type of situations. Regardless of the facts LOL.

Za Rodinu · #56 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 12:45 AM

Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

ozjohn39 · #57 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 01:40 AM

JCF,

;-)

I sometimes try to visualise just what 'I' would have done knowing the peace-lovers were on their way from the sunny beaches of France.

As I have pointed out, EVERY available warship, plane and rifle would have been waiting for them. Even the cranky old vets from WW1 in the Home Guard would have been in the welcoming committee.

I can even imagine sending every available tramp steamer to mingle with the barges fleet to cut tow lines and swamp barges.

And another interesting thing is all these towed barges getting with 150 yards of the gentle English surf on a typical English summers day. Six foot breakers and LOTS of rocks!!!

Can you imagine a tug with 2 or 3 barges in tow, unhooking and trying to PUSH the barges through the surf to the sand? Maybe they could stay out a mile or so in calmer waters and get Fritz, Heinz, and Adolph to swim the last bit.

Like I said,

100% losses.

OJ

PS,

I have a mate in Bend OR, and spent 4 days there in 2004, lovely place, but too B****y COLD!

skunk works · #58 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 01:59 AM

The Nazi's had U-boats, but the RN had some to.
There's a reason they stayed clear of the "Channel". (Channel dash ? Hugging the French coast ?)
Guess what that was ?

Their plan of having three (mined on each side) corridors ... snail/slug speed barges ... with no left/right escape from torpedoes/bombs/shellfire, unfriendly mines, would've been quite a show ... pyrotechnic show that is.

No time to go "All-In" with a hand like that.

What were they thinking ? Scare tactics ? They didn't know who they were dealing with.
Don't pull the Lion's tail.

ozjohn39 · #59 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 02:09 AM

von R,

Do you realise that after Dunkirk, the 344,000 men, minus the French who went back to southern France I believe, were all sent either on leave to recover their strength, or to hospital to get fixed up.

Within about a month, they were refreshed and waiting for the Krauts to try their hand at mass suicide.

Flat lands had old cars and buses on them, and pill boxes were scattered all over the island.

Sometimes I think germans are not very bright.

OJ

redcoat · #60 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozjohn39

Sometimes I think germans are not very bright.

OJ

Well, they can't be that daft.

They had the good sense not to attempt it

They went and did something much easier...They invaded the Soviet Union

Za Rodinu · #61 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozjohn39

And another interesting thing is all these towed barges getting with 150 yards of the gentle English surf on a typical English summers day. Six foot breakers and LOTS of rocks!!!

Can you imagine a tug with 2 or 3 barges in tow, unhooking and trying to PUSH the barges through the surf to the sand? Maybe they could stay out a mile or so in calmer waters and get Fritz, Heinz, and Adolph to swim the last bit.

Mind you, OJ, those were river barges taken from the Rhine, Maas, Loire, etc trade. Now you are not going to try to convince me (

)that these barges with such a low freeboard are in any way able to face any kind of sea. And what are they going to to when (if!) they reach a beach, lob their load overboard? They don't have any unloading ramps like a proper LCT, they were made to be tied along a pier!

These ones are at Duisburg.

We've discussed this at length and to exhaustion in a former thread already.

With so much water this must be a wet dream

ozjohn39 · #62 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 07:42 PM

ZR,

"We've discussed this at length and to exhaustion in a former thread already."

With so many Forums on this wonderful thing called the Internet, it is bound to be full of similar subjects and opinions, no matter where we go. I am a member of probably half a dozen political, economic and military forums and they are ALL full to the brim with the same problem.

It is still all wonderful fun, and keeps this old codger young!

OJ

JCFalkenbergIII · #63 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

We've discussed this at length and to exhaustion in a former thread already.

With so much water this must be a wet dream

LOL Za. There have been at least 5 threads on this subject on this site alone

. And IIRC most of those threads have been Closed LOL

. This is one of those Zombie subjects that just wont die

LOL. And usually the ones who bring it up are the ones rooting for the Nazis to win LOL

.

Troglodyte · #64 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 09:02 PM

Any attempt of Sea Lion = close to 100% casualties for Axis!

You can wet dream as much as you want, but unless you have working doctrne for amphibiouse landings it is a suicide trying something on a scale of Sea Lion.

Allied did't start with Overlord either. They had Sicily, Italy etc.
Put RAF and RN into the mix and things look pretty bad for Axis.

Joe · #65 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozjohn39

von Rundstedt,

"Had the Luftwaffe had gain control then those naval assets would make nice target practice for the Luftwaffe,"

How many ships, charging around at 30 knots, did the LW manage to sink in WW2?

"plus i don't remember where but i always thought that the Aircraft Carriers, Battlehips and Heavy Cruisers would be quarunteened from anti-invasion interdiction,"

The very reason the RN 'Home Fleet' EXISTED was to DEFEND the HOME Island!!!!! If the invasion was on, then EVERY ship would have been used no matter what.

" they were needed to evacuate the Government and the Royal Family."

NEVER! (anyway how many ships would you need???) In the darkest days, the Queen was advised to arrange evacuation of the Royal children to Canada. Her reply was,

"the children would never leave without me, I would never leave without the King, and he would NEVER leave"

This leaves just the smaller cruisers and destroyers to act as anti-invasion interdiction. Plus another factor in all of this is that of the substantial war materiel loss of the British during the Norwegian and French campaigns this includes

67,000 vehicles
thousands of artillery pieces
440+ tanks
1 million tonnes of supplies
several hundred aircraft
several hundred vessels
45,000+ pow's

You obviously know little of the situation in mid 1940. Britain had the RAF still UNdefeated and getting stronger, the RN Home Fleet was waiting and the Britsih Army had a MILLION men with rifles and Brens etc.

'SeaLion' would have FAILED dismally, and germany would have suffered 100% losses.

"At the time it was estimated that it would take at least 6 to 12 months for the Army to recover enough to repell any attempt at invasion, some estimates i have read suggest that as little as 6 German divisions could have taken Britain (now even to me this is silly)."

ALL of it is silly!

OJ

Yes, yes, yes!!!

May I welcome you to the sealion-bashing club?

Oh and this is the type of post I have made countless times, the Royal family would not abandon Britian and the whole purpose of the RN was to stop an invasion.

Slipdigit · #66 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Close...Close a thread....did someone say to close this thread?

ozjohn39 · #67 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 09:20 PM

What also intrigues me is just what would have happened if the Krauts HAD been stupid enough to try 'SeaLion'.

Most agree it would have ben a disaster, but how would that have affected Hitlers plans and actions in later years?

Would 'Barbarossa' gone ahead?

Would Hitler have simply sat on what he had, and started a cold war?

Comments?

OJ

Joe · #68 (**permalink**) July 24th, 2008, 11:09 PM

He would probably rant and rave and blame his generals.