i have a question for you about the Sealion plan.

everybody knows that the nazis needed to dominate the air, but would it be enough? i mean, what about the royal navy?
crossing the channel would mean facing the navy. nazis air superiority would be enough to smash the royal navy? or maybe the nazis thought the navy would never show up without decent air coverage and instead prefer to stay away to preserve warships for an asylum uk government?

anyway, what were the nazis ideas about the navy???

__________________
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons
- Winston Churchill

You know, I'm not really sure. I know they developed the worlds largest glider/transport plane that they used throughout the war - large enough to carry 120 Soldiers, Tanks, etc. It was designed for use in Operation Sea Lion, to cross the channel (part of their Surprise Attack plan). I imagine the Navy would play a supporting role. If it was an Invasion Force, I think you could expect the Royal Navy to show up, despite the odds, in a Live or Die situation. Why spare some big ships when your countries existence is at stake?

__________________

Hitler had great respect for the British navy and airforce and feared that his forces would suffer heavy casualties in any invasion attempt. Hitler, who had not seen the sea until he was over forty lacked confidence when it came to naval warfare, he told his naval Commander in Chief "On land I am a hero, at sea I am a coward".

It was also clear to Germany that an invasion could not even be attempted until the Royal Navy - still one of the most formidable fighting forces in the world - had been either destroyed or diverted and after the Royal Air Force had been eliminated

that's the point!
u r saying that nazis knew air superiority was not enough to attempt the invasion. if so, what was the nazis plan to "divert" the royal navy? what the sealion plan said about this issue? maybe uboots coverage? maybe they thought about a massive use of paratroops?

__________________
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons
- Winston Churchill

There are some pretty long threads on this on other forums. The Axis history forum in particular has a number of good data threads as well as the What IF ones.

Short answer is the LW probably could not have held off the RN even if they had air superiority. However they were a very long way from being able to maintain air superiority over the beaches or channel.

The German preparations were a joke compared to D-Day.

__________________
Regards, Richard

my answer would be even shorter...I wouldn't have used the word 'probably'

__________________
if in doubt....Panic!!!!

I have a picture in a book somewhere (Battle of Britain by Deighton/Hastings) that shows the "3" lanes that the Germans planned to use;
Cherbourgh to Portland, 20,000 men
Normandy to Brighton, 30,000 men
Calais to Dover 40,000 men
With paratroopers creating a bridgehead no more than 10-15 miles in (on the first day)
Wishful Thinking !
Mines on each side of each lane, and U-Boats on both sides of all 3 lanes.

The RN could have done the Yamato plan, and run aground some of the older BB's and fought to the last shell with no danger of sinking (if they even had to be that desperate)(which I doubt). Not to mention a "Banzai" charge right into the middle of them.

The Germans didn't do it because.....they couldn't do it......without taking a "Big Time" beating.

__________________

Morbius, Morbius! Something is approaching from the Southwest. It is now quite close.

thank you Skunk.
now the situation looks more clear.
actually there are many maps around on the sea lion plan, and they all have "arrows" towords britain, but how to face RN is a point that is never deepened.
just mines+uboots seems a very poor strategy... as far as you know there was any plan to use the french fleet, which was still intact?

anyway, i'm not surprised the many in germany felt relieved when the plan was cancelled.

__________________
If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons
- Winston Churchill

Map relating to Operation Sealion

Attached Images

450px-Operazione-leone-marino.png (71.5 KB, 25 views)

Liberators map is more intense than the one I have but it still (as mine) points to wishes and not "how to's".
For example look at how Americans/British went about their many amphibious endeavors.
They pretty much swept the sea of surface competition, ran the enemy carriers away (if any), and totally dominated the air. Then softened the beaches with engineer/frogmen (removing obstacles)(surveying depth/tide/defenses), and a bombardment (virtually unopposed) from major ships and all types of bombers.
Have numerous support ships standing off, but close in.
The situation was still "iffy".
The Germans had none of these issues under control.
Then there are the "X' factors....
Weather
how to manage Allied.....
MTB's
Submarines
Huge surface Fleet
burning oil on the beaches (I know, this didn't work so good but they let the rumor spread).
perhaps.......poison gas ?
A point Musso made....When fighting for your very Hearth & Home, why hold anything back ?
The fighters of not just 11 Group, but 10, 12, and 13 as well. The gliders and paratroopers would've been slaughtered.
Every bomber (or plane capable of holding a bomb) of every type besides.
The Germans could do none of this.
If you look at maps of the "Channel Dash" the Kriegsmarine hugged the French coast, and still barely made it through afloat, even with bad weather on their side. (which thwarted at least one Beaufort torpedo attack). Maneuvering to avoid torpedo's against the coast is asking to run aground.
I don't believe the French would've participated, and I don't believe the Germans could've fielded/trained enough to take their place (again...if...the French allowed it).
The Italians were a non-factor, as they may have been there is some capacity, the majority would've been busy somewhere else.
A hard road.
The plans for this thing were like those of a "Holiday", nothing standing in your way. It had a 50/50 chance of success for a couple week stay, if there was no RAF/RN/ARMY.

__________________

Morbius, Morbius! Something is approaching from the Southwest. It is now quite close.

I realize that I may be stepping into trouble here, but had air superiority been won, the Royal Navy would not have stood a chance. Not that the German Navy would have done them in but the Luftwaffe. This is why air superiority was a prerequisite for any further action. Now I will duck.

__________________
The Muslim Brotherhood “must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands..." — Mohamed Akram. http://jihadwatch.org/

I will second that.....

History has shown that even the largest and the mightiest of the battleships failed to withstand an air assault when lacking air cover themselves..... As brave and as experienced the sailors of the RN may have been, it seems that statistics would not have been on their side.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Even if the germans did invade, I am 100% sure they would have beed defeated. Britain (or England) has not been successfully invaded since 1066 remember.

__________________

The boy with an arse for a face, every week on five...

ahh yes but joe we only had a few regiments mostly homeguard. still using ww1 tactics we were on our own remember.

__________________

"The Dark lord and his companions have returned!" (insane giggling)

I thought there was at least a full division of Canadians (maybe even an armored division) in Britain at the time. Indeed from acounts I've seen there were several regular divisions that were pretty much full up by late September. Considering they would have been facing essential leg infantry units short on artillery the Germans aren't going to have an easy time of it.

As for the LW taking on the RN. I'm sure they would have hurt the RN but could hardly have stopped them from destroying the invasion fleet. Especially sense the RAF would have been able to contest the air. BBs were far from helpless vs air attack and it's a mistake to say that the LW had anywhere near the anti-naval capablility of the Japanese or the USN or late war USAAF.

Yes there was one full strength armored division (I think), that the Germans thought where in wales. It was actually right in their line of advance. Just goes to show how bad German intelligence was...compare it to the Allies in 1944...yes there was a full division of Canadians. There was also the remmanants of the BEF. Short of equipment, but could still put up a hell of a fight with what they had. And anyway they where being resupplied as fast as the factories could make the weapons. So if the Germans wanted Britain, they would have had to fight very hard to get it.



And yes, The LW wasn't even designed for anti-naval warfare, mostly for ground support.

__________________

The boy with an arse for a face, every week on five...

even early onset with victories on the mainland of Europe Germany still could not and did not contend with naval transport issues and that was key in the landborne assault, air power though extremely well put in the LW generals minds, the pilots the reverse on the front lines, knew that the RAF would of beat them silly in the air as the BoB was to present. air assault would not have won the day nor sending multitudes of Ju 52's with parachutists would of accomplished the dream goal(s) ~ look a Crete as prime example.

Sealion was a joke even as a concept, air borne long range bombing was the key but the LW was never set up during the war for this type of undertaking as they were principle in the attack im Blitzschlacht ever single time or that was the hope

still if half of the german army invaded we would be in trouble.

__________________

"The Dark lord and his companions have returned!" (insane giggling)

Thats if they even got them across the Channel-even then it was a case of getting them inland. I think Churchill was enthusiastic about drenching the Beaches with poison gas.
Besides, German doctrine was all centered on the Panzers, It would be hard to get them across without a port. If they tried to sail them across on rafts three things would happen
a) The weather tips them over
b)The RN pulverizes them
c)Shore batteries pulverizes them (the guns had a short supply of Ammunition, but all it takes is a single hit to destroy a barge like the Germans where planning to use)

And if even then If they did get a port, It would probably all be destroyed...Like Cherbourg was. The Germans would also have to capture an airfield early to get reinforcements. They would have been destroyed too. It would have taken the Germans Quite a long time to get them Operational again, Giving the British Valuable time to get organized.

__________________

The boy with an arse for a face, every week on five...

Joe this is why I go back in my statement that no official and real workable floating small carrier for heavy weapons was developed. sure the artillery barge was an option but not on a rough ocean, great for fording placid lakes and small rivers, nah the Germans would of gotten a real arse whipping ......