I think so need to be changed in some way. Especially those who gravitate towards or adore the evil side. Or ignore the true reality of war and combat and its effects.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

What an amazing letter! It could not be put any plainer than the words in this letter.

What disheartens me more than those that romaticize wars are those that you hear say "If I hear one more vet give me the sob story about how they served in the war....blah, blah, blah..." The last time I heard someone say that - just a few days ago from my 21 year old step-daughter, nonetheless - I looked at her and said "It is because of that person that you are not eating sauerkraut for dinner every night answering the phone with "Heil Hitler" instead of Hello. If there any anyone that deserves your respect, it is a vet." Needless to say, she wasn't very happy with my displeasure.

I was reflecting on this exchange while watching a program about the U.S.S. Indianapolis - those guys floating in the oil-slicked water for 4 days being picked off one by one by the sharks...all after thier ship sank.....it makes me sick to see people not show respect for that.

About gamers....I am so addicted to the COD series myself, but the romance of the game has never thrown off my ideas of the reality of war. Probably the closest one can get is seeing the anguish-twisted face of a veteran sharing thier stories and emotions of thier experiences...and still this doesn't even get me nearly close to the real experience.

Great thread!!!

Lisa

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War does not determine who is right, only who is left.
---Bertrand Russell

http://alterity.etsy.com
http://alterityart.etsy.com

Thanks for the response and comments Lisa.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

There is no romance in wars except occasionally for the rather disconnected general.

There isn't any at the front or anywhere else. Fixing a John Deere 344 10 K all-terrain forklift in 125 degree 80% humidity weather outdoors is no fun. Being covered in grease as part of this is even less fun.
Watching a 2nd Class PO's jaw drop as a Chief asks him for a 1" socket in this condition, priceless. (You'd have to have served in a Navy to understand that fully).

Hey! I like Sauerkraut! My problem is that my religion has issues with the Eisbein

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Oh, don't get me wrong...I love sauerkraut! It will please you to know I don't make eisbein, however!!! I was raised on german food...but my husband is a millionth generation american polish, so I don't get to make german food too much and his kids certainly won't touch it....the most i can get him to eat is canned german potatoe salad (yeeechhhh!) To make matters worse, in February I really wanted Wienerschnitzel, kartoffelpuffer and sauerkraut...so I made it even though I know he hates it. later that night he came down with a horrible stomach flu and after bringing all that sauerkraut back up he won't even let me make it for myself becasue the smell makes him remember his horrible experience!

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War does not determine who is right, only who is left.
---Bertrand Russell

http://alterity.etsy.com
http://alterityart.etsy.com

I agree T.A. There is a large gap between the reality of War and the non reality that some here get thier views and opinions from.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Oh man humping a 110 pound ruck. All your Ammo. grenades. Nvgs. rifle. K pot and body armour up the hills of the SHA EL KOT valley in stan in snow up to your waist at 14000' is a hoot i tell ya

WW II vet recalls horrors of battle

By CHUCK CRUMBO - ccrumbo@thestate.com

A bullet hit the frozen ground in front of Mel Brandenburg’s foxhole, causing him to flinch. A second shot struck him in the upper left arm.
With the help of a buddy, Brandenburg used his belt to make a tourniquet. Then he walked toward the rear, looking for a medic.
“It was the worst walk of my life,” Brandenburg said Friday, his voice quivering with emotion. “I had to walk by my buddies who were dead in the field.”
Brandenburg, who was wounded in the Battle of the Bulge, talked about his experiences during the annual World War II memorial program at the Dorn VA Medical Center.
Friday’s event marked the 63rd anniversary of the day in 1945 when President Truman accepted Japan’s surrender, ending World War II. Germany had surrendered four months earlier.
The Battle of the Bulge was one of the bloodiest and largest battles between U.S. and German Forces in World War II.
When the three-week-long struggle in the bone-chilling and dark forests of the Ardennes ended in early January 1945, the Americans had suffered 81,000 casualties, including 19,000 killed. The German toll topped 100,000.
At battle’s end, Hitler’s army, which had made a last gasp offense to split the allied forces, had been destroyed.
Brandenburg’s recollections of the battles he fought with the 78th Infantry Division held the attention of most veterans in the audience.
When Brandenburg, of Batesburg-Leesville, joked about going on too long, audience members told him to “go on, go on.”
Recounting the horrors of the battle and what it was like to see his buddies die brought nods from many in the audience.
Although he was deployed in the South Pacific, Joe S. Derrick, of Batesburg-Leesville, said the battlefield experience was similar.
“Especially the part about everybody getting killed,” said Derrick, a former Army MP. “It was just a matter of survival.”
James Fowler, of Newberry, also identified with Brandenburg’s experiences.
“I remember a lot of the things he was talking about,” said Fowler, who was a member of the Army’s Quartermaster Corps. “I went to the same places in England, France and Belgium.”
The one thing all veterans from any war could identify with was the 86-year-old Brandenburg’s recollections of the impersonal randomness of death on the battlefield.
Returning to his story about seeking aid for his wounded arm, Brandenburg said he tried to climb aboard an ambulance for a ride to a field hospital.
But there was no room, so Brandenburg had to wait.
“Minutes later, the ambulance took a direct hit, and none of them survived,” Brandenburg said.
“Only God knows why I’m still here.”
The vets nodded.

The State | 08/16/2008 | WW II vet recalls horrors of battle

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

These stories are the reality of war. Just a few of the things that are missing from the "historically" accurate and "Realistic" RPGs.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

A very apt statement.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

That Letter was very powerful, now myself obviously not knowing war try my best to understand it, but as Oscar had said it must be felt

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-Dustin

"Zey send zer hounds! zey to vill find only death!"

Or, at the other end: It's 2 in the morning. You are two hours into a four hour watch on the "big eyes" with your MIUW detachment. You have on a set of BDUs, long underwear, green weenie coveralls, a pullover sweater, a field jacket with liner, three pairs of socks, a watch cap (beanie), your helment, cotton gloves inside leather gloves, sound powered phones (they keep your ears from freezing completely) and you are about to freeze to death in the 40 degree temperature as a 50 knot wind blows over you.
About then the van asks for a visual on the sound powered phones on something bearing....LIKE I REALLY GIVE A FLYING #%^Q#%^. You reply you see nothing not bothering to try and look. Maybe the leftover MRE in your pants pocket will help.....
Up next, an hour later you are relieved early because the diesel generator is acting funny and spend the next six fixing the %!^Q#@&#&$***( POS because nobody else has half a %@^Y$&*$URJ brain to purge the fuel lines after running the Q#$!#^%^Y& diesel out of fuel!
That's what war and the military are really like.

But wait!!! Where is the Glory and Honor and excitement?? lol

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

WW II Pacific campaign filled with misery



By RON SIMON • News Journal • September 1, 2008

LUCAS -- In the summer of 1943, Lt. Bernard Kasten only saw the sun twice.
As Kasten, 90, a retired Sears and Roebuck store manager recalls, "It's 1,000 miles from Dutch Harbor to Attu. They are the most brutal miles in the Pacific Ocean. For 15 months, that is where we fought one of the toughest campaigns of World War II."
Kasten believes the long Aleutians Islands campaign has been mostly forgotten.
It began with the Japanese bombing Dutch Harbor's naval base. It included one battle on Attu Island and a huge surprise, when it was found the Japanese had evacuated Kiska Island.
The rest, Kasten said, was pure misery.
He said the only authentic book written on this campaign was "The Thousand Miles War" by Brian Garfield.
"In the context of the global war, it was a relatively small campaign. About 500,000 men took part through land, sea and air.
There were few American casualties at the battle on Attu Island but one of them, the death in action of 2nd Lt. "Shorty" Brewer, brought tears to Kasten's eyes.
Brewer was a good friend and Kasten believes he may have died himself, in Brewer's place, had his own infantry company been in reserve.
Otherwise, Kasten's memories of the Aleutian Islands are of fog, cold, damp, wind, and black muck a foot deep.
Kasten's unit landed on a forsaken island called Amchitka to establish an air base.
"My memory of the first 10 days on that island is mostly a blur," Kasten said. "The weather conditions were constantly bad."
Just getting a tent erected in the wind was hard, he said.
Wheeled vehicles sank in the black muck so everything had to be carried ashore and moved by hand.
But the men did eat well for those first 10 days. A supply ship was driven ashore by the wind.
Its cargo of food was quickly devoured before it could go bad, Kasten said. From that point, it was field rations all the way.
Water was nearly undrinkable despite being purified with chlorine.
"The G.I.s called it 50-50," Kasten said.
Establishing an air field was difficult and Japanese fighter and bomber planes made it even harder with their daily raids.
Kasten said morale got a boost when some American fighter planes managed to ambush the Japanese during one of those raids. Otherwise, he said, the Japanese often had the advantage.
The Japanese occupied two of the outermost islands, Attu and Kiska.
Kasten said there were few Japanese on Attu and most died in a final suicide charge.
He said the Americans hit Kiska hard, only to find there were no Japanese there.
That was the end of what turned out to be an 18-month campaign for Kasten's 7th Infantry Division.
He said his unit had been trained to fight in the deserts of North Africa. So the shift to the chill, windy Aleutian Islands was a shock.
A native of Grand Rapids, Mich., Kasten earned a degree in business administration and paid for his schooling by owning and operating the East Lansing Heating Co.
"We cleaned and repaired coal furnaces in homes," he said.
Sears and Roebuck officials liked Kasten's background and hired him as a trainee. His training was in Cleveland. That's where he met his wife, Mary June, at Euclid Beach Amusement Park.
He was drafted in early 1942. After basic training, he attended Officers Candidate School.
Not long after graduation, he and Mary June were married. There wasn't much time to celebrate. After training in California, Kasten's 7th Division was on its way to the Thousand Mile War.
When he got home from Alaska, Kasten was promoted twice and became a captain in the infantry.
He was assigned to Fort Benning, Ga., where he instructed trainees in the 82nd Airborne in infantry tactics. That's where he was when the war ended.
He said Sears kept his job open for him and he eventually became a store manager. His last store was at Great Northern Mall in North Olmsted. He retired in 1974.
Kasten and June spend summers on the shores of Charles Mill Lake and their winters in Florida.
He enjoys painting and gardening and she has a large doll collection. They are active in the United Methodist Church and he is a member of Disabled American Veterans.
"I'm still a Michigan boy at heart," Kasten said. "I still root for the Detroit Tigers and Lions and for Michigan State."
The couple had four boys and three of them, Bernard Jr., William Richard and James C. are physicians. The fourth son, Robert Mark, is a businessman in Cincinnati.
There are 14 grandchildren and 10 great-grandchildren to date. There are more doctors on the way," Kasten said.
Recalling his war in the Aleutians, Kasten believes the entire campaign was largely mismanaged and didn't provide much in the way of glory for those involved -- just misery.
"Frostbite was our biggest problem," he said.
"Attu was one of the biggest operations in the Pacific War and to this day you won't hear much about it," he said.

WW II Pacific campaign filled with misery | mansfieldnewsjournal.com | Mansfield News Journal

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Bump again

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Great thread, JC!

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“The first lesson is that you can't lose a war if you have command of the air, and you can't win a war if you haven't.” - General Jimmy Doolittle

Thanks . I hope that some of the younger crowd and others take the words here to heart.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Battle haunts WWII vet

‘I see those dead people ... every day’

By JEFF WILKINSON - jwilkinson@thestate.com

Frederick 'Fitz' Gray, 83, of Gadsden, will be one of 100 veterans on the Honor Flight Nov. 15 to see the National World War II Memorial. During the Battle of the Bulge, Gray survived six weeks in a foxhole.




Fifty-two bodies — German or American, Fritz Gray couldn’t tell — lay frozen in a minefield.

They were there for five weeks in the winter of 1944 as Gray shivered in a foxhole in the shattered Hertgen Forest, on the German-Belgian border, during the Battle of the Bulge.
The sight has haunted Gray for 64 years.
“I see those dead people in front of my gun every day,” said Gray, 83. “They were lined up like football players in the snow.”
Pvt. Gray, a teenage draftee from Gadsden, was ill-prepared for the sight and has undergone therapy ever since. Even now, he attends monthly meetings for World War II veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder.
Gray never has spoken publicly about his experiences.
“Until the past few years, he didn’t talk about it at all,” said his wife of 60 years, the former Pearl Abernathy.
Gray said the images are getting worse and, perhaps, a public airing will help exorcise them. “It’s manifesting itself more now than 10 years ago,” he said.
Gray is one of 100 veterans who will be on the inaugural Honor Flight to the nation’s capital Nov. 15 to visit the National World War II Memorial.
Local organizers hope to raise $300,000 to charter six flights to take 600 veterans to Washington for free. Priority will be given to veterans in ill health or those who have not seen the memorial.
Frederick D. “Fritz” Gray, son of a Gadsden farm family, was a reluctant warrior.
He was drafted in March 1943, when the United States — running out of soldiers — lowered the draft age to 18 from 21.
“They said, ‘I want you!’” Gray said from the living room of his neat home close to the Dorn Veterans Hospital, where he worked for 38 years.
Gray didn’t particularly want to go to war. In fact, he had never spent the night away from his parents until he was inducted in March 1943 at Fort Jackson. And he had only traveled outside of South Carolina once — on a family trip to Virginia Beach.
“The first couple of months were rough,” he said. “I was homesick. But there were other Carolina boys there like me. We were all in the same boat.”
Gray says death always made him queasy. He remembers as a child always getting a little sick and not being able to eat at a “set up,” an old Southern term for a home funeral.
Because he had learned to type at Lower Richland High School — a skill that served him well throughout his life — the Army made him a clerk.
He was assigned to the 269th Field Artillery Battalion at Fort Bragg. But Gray wasn’t taught to fire the battalion’s 240-mm “black dragon” howitzers — guns that could throw a 360-pound shell 17 miles. “I was a mail clerk,” he said.
In April 1944, Gray sailed to England on the Queen Elizabeth, a luxury liner that had been converted into a troopship. At D-Day plus 44 — July 20 — he crossed the English Channel and landed on Omaha Beach in France in a landing ship. His unit spent the next two weeks in the hedgerows shelling St. Lo.
That action marked the beginning of 10 months of continuous fighting. The battalion, at one time or another, supported every Allied army on the Western Front.
In December 1944, the farm boy-turned-clerk found himself manning a captured German artillery piece in the cauldron of the Ardennes.
“Our shelling. The German shelling. It looked worse than when (Hurricane) Hugo hit,” he said.
The 18 guns — captured 105-mm artillery pieces — had been pre-positioned by someone. Gray and his buddy Oscar “Bennie” Groves would just load the German shells and pull the lanyard, praying the ammunition hadn’t been sabotaged. One member of their unit had been killed when a sabotaged shell exploded.
Gray said he didn’t know what killed the men in the minefield.
For weeks, the two men would sleep huddled together for warmth in the snow-covered foxhole, within 50 feet of the 52 bodies.
“It was so cold,” Gray said. “At least, there was no odor.”
Despite his phobia about corpses, Gray ate every meal brought to him. “You gotta do what you gotta do,” he said.
Finally, a unit entered the field to remove the dead. But one man stepped on a mine and was severely injured as Gray watched.
Gray remembers a medic — a conscientious objector — ran into the field to aid the injured man.
“The medic said, ‘I was going to help someone. So if I stepped on every mine, God wouldn’t let them go off,’” Gray remembered.
Eventually, Gray’s battalion moved on to other battles and he returned to duty as a mail clerk.
When the war ended on May 7, 1945, “we mixed all the (liquor) we had together and had a party,” he said. “And when I got to New York, I kissed the ground.”
Despite his disturbing experience, Gray joined the S.C. Air National Guard after the war and saw service in Alaska during the Korean Conflict and in Spain during the Berlin Airlift.
He was in the Air Guard for 22 years while working at the VA, again as a clerk.
“Because I could type,” he said.

The State | 09/15/2008 | Battle haunts WWII vet

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Another example of how "Glorious" and "Awesome" war is .

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I can't believe I missed this thread! Too much time on the road and not enough free wi-fi spots!!

Great letter!
I know it would be impossible, but I wish every one who joined here would read that letter!
Thanks again JCF!

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Scott

Thanks bigfun. Like I have said before. So do I. Its better to hear the words from those who were there and experienced it then from some Video game or documentary.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

"Cool"

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Just another bump for those who have no real idea what war is about and thing its "Cool" and "awesome" .

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.