Or even of a Soviet reenactment group they would encounter. No love there obviously either.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Ha! Good idea JCF! I'd love to see a re-enacted battle between an SS division and a Russian division. I wonder if they would get down to the nitty gritty...the bayonets, hand to hand fighting, etc.


Not to brush off the main topic, and this is my first post here (the History Channel forums are occupied by a couple idiotic Holocaust deniers) so Hallo to everyone.

Now, on the topic of re-enactors. I am a young 35, and would love to participate in a re-enactment but there aren't any in my area that I know of. I would probably join the Allies if I had a choice, but I'm not going to lie to you...there is an attraction to the German side. I don't know if it's the smart uniforms, the armor they had, or their ability to last as long as they did against such an overwhelming Allied superiority in both men and materials.

Personally, I don't see a problem with re-enacting the battles of WWII. Hopefully, like someone (I forgot who) before posted, it will serve as an ecuational tool also. I believe that educating the young about the atrocities of the SS will help to stem the attitudes and the glorifying of the SS and their atrocities. Hopefully.

I'd like to add that I have the utmost respect for the veterans of WWII, and hope that my words and opinions don't offend those who actually fought.

"I mentioned in my original posting that I had left another forum because I felt unable to be a member of a site that included a 2nd Waffen SS re-enactor."

"I now consider that this may have been a mistake on my part and I will not repeat it here so I am afraid that, moderators permitting, you will continue to be subjected to my views on this subject."

Mr. Goldstein,

I respect and revere your service to your country, and to the cause of destroying the vile evil of Nazi Germany. Personal accounts such as yours go a lot further than abstract texts to show the depth of evil that was Hitler. Moreover, I commiserate with your family in their loss to the "Final Solution." I can not pretend to understand the depth of feeling that must arise from that. Please don't go anywhere; I for one value your contributions here.

Having said that, I would ask for some clarification. Does your indictment of the 2nd SS extend to the entire Waffen-SS? While familiar with atrocities committed by troops of specific Waffen-SS units, I've not seen anything to suggest that all Waffen-SS units were criminally active. Please enlighten me.

__________________
David

"It is history that teaches us to hope"
Robert E. Lee

David

I thank you for your appreciation and commiserations and assure you that, G-d willing, I have no intention of going anywhere in the immediate future.

As requested, I seek to clarify:

1. When I said "I now consider that this may have been a mistake on my part", the mistake I was referring to was that of my leaving the forum instead of continuing to register my protests.
I still abhor completely those who would seek to venerate or glorify the like of the 2nd Waffen SS for reasons that are self evident, well documented and universally accepted by the civilised world.

2. I am well aware that after 1943 the rules of enrolment in the Waffen SS were relaxed and this was taken into account at the Nuremberg Trials (see Wikipedia below)

3. My original protest concerned a particular site that called itself "The 2nd Waffen SS" and I limited myself to saying that I could not in all conscience remain on the same forum that included the leader of that same re-enactor group.

4. You may very well be correct in saying that "I've not seen anything to suggest that all Waffen-SS units were criminally active".
I would merely say that, given my background, I am hardly likely to favour any group of people who would use the name SS to further their cause.

I trust I have made my position clear

Ron


Wikipedia:
The Waffen-SS was a group of combat units composed of volunteer troops with particularly strong personal commitments to Nazi ideology and selected on racial basis, so that people such as Jews or Poles were not allowed within the organisation. As stated by Himmler, the primary goal of SS formations was to fight Jewish people, people considered subhuman by the racist Nazi ideology (e.g., Poles, Jews, Roma people) and communists[1].

It was founded in Germany in 1939 after the SS was split into two units[1] but the title of Waffen-SS only became official on 2 March 1940.[2] Although nominally under the leadership of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, a political and internal security appointee, the Waffen-SS saw action throughout the Second World War under de facto operational control of the Wehrmacht. During the war it grew to 39 divisions, which served as elite combat troops alongside the regular army.[1][3]

After the war, at the Nuremberg Trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation due to their political connections to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP), and involvement in war crimes and The Holocaust, this is all except conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted from the judgment on the basis of involuntary servitude.

__________________
During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

This is interesting. Coming from a descendent of a Waffen SS member I have dealt with these views for all of my life. I understand the classification of the Waffen SS as a criminal organization and agree with that. But consider this. If you live in a police state where the smallest infraction can mean your incaceration into the concentration camp system or worse yet, death, how do you respond to orders to shoot prisoners? What if you are asked to be a witness to 'cleansing' of a town with trigger happy soldiers. How would you respond? My grandfather volunteered to fight for Facisism as he knew it. His family were behind Franco and being the youngest male, he went to Germany to join the new order. He wanted to help fight communism. As the war progressed, He made comments that the Germans were 'bloodthirsty'. Yet, once he joined, he was committed for better or for worse. Did he commit atrocities, no more than what he has seen the enemy do. Yes, even the Canadians shot prisoners. But I agree with those who have said that you can't have a WWII re-enactment event w/o units such as the Waffen SS. If all groups are there to present historical events, then I think that is acceptable. I do know that some of the Waffen SS re-enactment groups I have contacted did make a serious effort to keep their candidates informed of rules against glamorizing the politics of the Waffen SS and even to salute in the Army manner and not the National Socialist manner.

True, seeing such units for those who lived through the hell of the holocaust, of battle, and even of the time will be uncomfortable and feel that such units should be banned. I probably would feel that same. I don't know what the answer is but If I was such a person, I would not attend such events if it is painful to relive such a time.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

They are such groups. Over here in Russia we have some groups who's reincarnating regular German&Russian units.

Personally i think the most dangerous and frightened that "glorification" of SS units sometimes happening on the government level. And that we have a huge neo-nazi groups all other Europe.

PzJgr

I have just returned to my computer after reading your original entry a few hours ago.

I note that you have added text to the original posting including the following:

“True, seeing such units for those who lived through the hell of the holocaust, of battle, and even of the time will be uncomfortable and feel that such units should be banned. I probably would feel that same. I don't know what the answer is but If I was such a person, I would not attend such events if it is painful to relive such a time”

If I may, I would like to first comment on this last paragraph.

I thank you for your remark that “I would probably feel the same” but it was never my intention to visit any re-enactment show, they are just not my scene, but I still reserve the right to comment on the ethics of those who would glorify the SS..

Earlier in your posting you say:
“This is interesting. Coming from a descendent of a Waffen SS member I have dealt with these views for all of my life”.

With respect and if I may paraphrase, I could equally say:

This is interesting. Coming from a Jewish family who originally fled from Poland to escape life-threatening persecution (my parents) I have dealt with these views (anti-semitism and racial bigotry) for all of my life.

You go on to say:

I understand the classification of the Waffen SS as a criminal organization and agree with that. But consider this. If you live in a police state where the smallest infraction can mean your incaceration into the concentration camp system or worse yet, death, how do you respond to orders to shoot prisoners? What if you are asked to be a witness to 'cleansing' of a town with trigger happy soldiers. How would you respond?

To which I would reply, again with all due deference and not wishing to dodge your question;

Who voted for the Nazi Party in the first place?
And who screamed in adulation at the large Party rallies ?
And who broke the windows and set fire to the synagogues on Kristallnacht ?
And who betrayed their Jewish neighbours to the Gestapo ?
And who allowed the Holocaust to occur in their name ?
And who were delighted to accept the seemingly endless victories?
And who by their acceptance of the Nazi system unleashed limitless evil upon the world?
and who….and who….and who……… ?

I could go on for a long time, but then again, by your own admission you have heard it all before.

As I have

Ron

__________________
During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

i beilive as far as war crimes go wasn't that all done by officers should the blame lye on you're average foot soldier???

Greetings Ron,
Sir, You do state facts but can we really accuse a whole nation of voting 100% for one party? Also, the Party, like the communist revolution, turned evil as time went by. So can we be 100% sure that the German people knew what was going to happen.

I am not defending what the Nazis did though it may sound like it. I am glad for the contribution of all involved (like yourself) in getting rid of such evil. What I am against is accusing 'everybody'.

Lets take the American forces in Iraq. We have some stupid individuals who go around teasing the Iraqi people but the whole American people are being labeled by the actions of a few.

I am grateful for your service and sharing your experiences. I also respect how you feel and I could never come close to imagining what you went through so forgive me if I get out of line. I just abhor stereotyping.

__________________

American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Just a note. Of course we can not judge the actions of the US Army when "some stupid individuals who go around teasing the Iraqi people" but then no US Army command level issued any order to shoot any Baath party member on sight. Now compare that to the Commissar Order, see below:

Notice that this was signed by the Army High Command, not SS !!! This was all tainted from the very top downwards!

Below is the most serious indictment of German actions I ever saw. This should indeed be pinned here:
Axis History Forum • View topic - German and European Axis war crimes FAQs

On the SS as a criminal organization:
Axis History Forum • View topic - Judgment on the SS as a Criminal Organization
The Avalon Project : The International Military Tribunal for Germany

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PzJgr, you have your reason for different response perhaps than many of us re the blanket label on the Waffen SS.

I would be more apt to agree re the labelling of an entire people being unjust. My Dad was a Vet. He told me briefly of being at the liberation of a concentration camp. I think it was Westerboerk. He was with the forces after the War and with the NATO forces in Germany in the 1950s. My parents did not blanket an entire people and respected and became friends with many of the Germans they met. But anything to do with the SS made my Dad's blood boil and even the mention of the name Kurt Meyer made his jaw clench.

Remember, this thread isn't about who did what to whom, but about a Veteran with justifiable emotion and reason to state how much he abhors the wearing of Waffen SS uniform by those who (in many instances) are idealizing those who were frequently responsible for rerehensible and horrific acts.

No side was saintly. I believe that the instances of barbarity were less likely performed by the Allies, at least the Western Allies. If you want to get into the atrocities Ron provided a link on the Malle thread that should suffice. Massacres and Atrocities of WWII in Western Europe I should point out, however, that there are many instances of the SS being guilty of the atrocities and massacres.

Interestingly, I didn't read any there of the Canadians being guilty of any there; however, I will accept that you would not have made such a statement without there being an instance to which you could refer. At the risk of sounding trite - Combat brings out the best in some, and the worst in others; it would most likely apply to all nationalities.

Oh, and one last point - when you read some of the instances of barbarity of one group and then the revenge of another on the above link, in some ways the horrors of those days come back to haunt us decades later.

__________________
Regards, Michelle

Oliver Goldsmith, "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines."

They were commited from the very top to the very bottom. Regardless of rank.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Reenacting the German Soldier of WW2

People always ask -"How can you dress up as a "Nazi" and parade around in that uniform and not feel guilty about what the Germans did in WW2?"
Well, this is how I look at it. You can't help feeling a greater sense of self-consciousness when you are at an event dressed as a "Nazi" because the majority of the people in the world view you as just that - a Nazi... the embodiment of evil in the 20th century. But, for those of us who study the subject, we know that the average German soldier was not unlike his Allied counterpart. The German soldier was a man called about to do a job. He had not made this war come about, nor was he a political fanatic. He was well disciplined, obeyed his orders and fought bravely. Toward the end of the war he became disillusioned, but nevertheless he did his duty well. If displeased, the German soldier was not inclined to revolt. In defeat, the German soldier retained his pride and self esteem. Even when his country lay in ruin, every man a prisoner and the people of his nation refugees, he knew that he had belonged to what was once considered the best armed forces in the world.In the end, the German soldier realized that he had fought for the wrong ideals and the wrong causes. He was misled by the leaders into which he had placed his trust. He was ashamed of the atrocities. He was trapped in history as an instrument of war. Nevertheless, he remained true to his sworn oath, "For Fuhrer and Fatherland..."
The German soldier fought bravely and died with honor.

WW2 German Army Reenacting Page


"John Colyer, overall re-enactment coordinator, played the role of a unit commander in the 11th SS Nordlanders, Norwegians who fought on the German side at the Russian Front.

Colyer said that he and his fellow "Nazi" re-enactors didn't support Nazi philosophy or atrocities. Instead, they sought to honor American veterans by reminding people of what Americans were up against.

"The Germans weren't idiots like the 'Sergeant Schultz' character on television," Colyer said. "They were well-trained and well- prepared, and it took a lot of bravery for Americans to go up against them and defeat them."

[ War games ] | Topeka Capital-Journal, The | Find Articles at BNET


2nd Panzer Division
RULES OF CONDUCT


Overview

Throughout history, the German soldier has been one of the most respected and feared opponents. This is especially true of German soldiers in World War II. Unfortunately, German soldiers (especially SS) in World War II were guilty of numerous atrocities, including murderous reprisals against innocent civilians, killing prisoners-of-war, and operating concentration camps.

To many people, German soldier and Nazi are synonymous. This is not necessarily true. The average German soldier, including most SS troops, were not members of the Nazi party. Most German soldiers (including many SS) were drafted. The average German soldier, like his opponent, was just an average citizen who ended up in uniform, and was desperately hoping to make it home alive. This, of course, does not excuse the actions of those Germans who did, in fact, commit crimes against humanity; but merely serves as a basis from which to explain that not ALL Germans were guilty.

Realizing that the average American has an immediate and extreme negative reaction to what they believe the German soldier (“Nazi”) to personify, a set of rules regarding conduct and behavior is necessary.

The goals of our organization are to educate the public and honor the memory of soldiers of World War II through the display and demonstration of the uniforms, weapons, equipment, and tactics used is World War II. It is difficult to educate someone if their initial reaction is one of disgust or horror.


Rules

ALL unit members must read, understand, and abide by these rules. In order to minimize to potential impact on the club of negative reactions by non-members, the following rules of conduct have been adopted by the unit and will followed and enforced:

1. German uniforms (especially those parts of the uniform displaying the swastika, SS runes, deaths-head, or readily identifiable as German - such as the helmet) will not be worn outside of the immediate display, demonstration, or reenactment area. Any further rules/restrictions desired by the hosting agency regarding wear or display of German uniforms, flags, insignia, etc. will be followed.

2. Display of the swastika, SS runes, or any emblem readily perceived as "Nazi" will be restricted to the absolute minimum required for historical accuracy to identify things such as captured equipment or used to identify German items. We will not, for example, fly or display the "Nazi" flag or any flag baring the swastika emblem where it may be seen by the public, or use the "Nazi" salute.

3. Fellow members, and especially visitors, will be treated with the utmost politeness, courtesy and respect. Any individual or group attempting to provoke a confrontation for any reason should be politely ignored, or referred to the unit or club leadership. At no time should we be provoked into a hostile response. Attempted intimidation or threats of violence should immediately be reported to the unit commander, board of directors, hosting agency, and if necessary, local law enforcement.

4. Members are not permitted to use club events as a forum to advocate their personal beliefs. We are and will remain, non-political. This club is NOT a Nazi, neo-Nazi, survivalist, or militia organization. Speeches, discussions, and dissemination of information (in any form) judged not to be in the best interests of the RPS, or directly related to the aims and goals of the RPS are forbidden.

5. Derogatory, stereotypical or demeaning names, nicknames, slurs, jokes, insults, characterizations or references are also prohibited.

6. All rules, regulations, policies and by-laws of the RPS, RPS German Forces, and individual unit are to be adhered to at all times. Violators will be dealt with severely.

The German soldier is traditionally well known for his discipline and his honor. This is a tradition which we shall continue. Discipline is the hallmark of the soldier. One component of discipline is obedience to rules. The soldier who wishes honor, will first exhibit discipline.


Visitors

Visitors Policy for German units is as follows:

1. A visitor must call one of the unit commander prior to the event and ask permission to attend and fight with that unit.

2. A visitor will act as a private regardless of uniform rank.

3. A visitor must fall within the scope of one of the units already portrayed in the RPS.

4. A visitor is allowed to come twice a year as a visitor. A third visit and he will join one of the existing units and accept the German battalion rules and rank and award guidelines.

5. Upon joining the club a veteran German reenactor can submit in writing an account of his previous experience to be considered towards rank and awards.

6. ANY EXCEPTIONS To these rules MUST BE pre-approved by the battalion commander BEFORE the event"

2nd Panzer Division Reenactors


.2 Impressions and minimum standards:

a) Participants are to be appropriately dressed/uniformed/equipped/trained to reflect the role portrayed and should only present appropriate impressions. For example, even at "open invite" events, certain impressions are not allowed eg SS personnel. Please refer to EventPlan's individual event web page(s) if in doubt, or contact us to ask. We reserve the right to exclude persons/impressions that we deem inappropriate (or lacking minimum standards of authenticity) from our events.

http://www.eventplan.co.uk/condition...ticipation.htm

__________________


For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.