LOL. Awwwww Za. Who cares about murders and massacres when you are the "#1 tank killing division in military history"?

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

You can always try this hobby, it should be less expensive than buying an historical outfit:






I'm amazed at the arrant ignorance and stupidity of this fellow. The Nazis sent homosexuals up the chimney stack !!!

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/51526837.html

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That is absolutely hillarious! Anyone wanting a laugh should have a look at this site, my favorite bit was:

What a cretin!

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Just felt like dropping this one into the pot.

Infantry Regiments Page

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How the hell can an action figure be gay or heterosexual... its a damm inanimate object...

What a strange turn Ron's post has taken in this deal with the dolls.

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All the Best
Jack

Personally, seems to me that the majority of the postings here are simply bias against the Waffen-SS. Yes, units and individuals of the Waffen-SS did commit "war crimes" in that they killed prisoners and civilians on occassions but so did allied units during the war and, sadly, so did fighting units throughout history. This of course does not condone or justify such actions, but such actions have to be seen in the context of the times. How do you think US soldiers would act in Iraq right now if they could do as they please? US soldiers in vietnam shot kids and raped women and kids, but not everyone did it and not all the time. Emphasis is always on the negative of the waffen-ss, while their countless deeds of selfless heroism are brushed to the side. Frankly, such a narrow view is no better than that of closed minded Nazis themselves.

Hawkmoon,

The reputation and memories of the SS are what they made for themselves, I had have no first hand experience with them, but I am from a generation that did. Re read Ron's post, Bias?

Face an enemy in real time, on the ground, up close and personal, see first hand what they left in their wake, not some "heroic selfless" nonsense written about them, damn right you'll be biased.

My mind has been opened for most of a century, but, "Emphasis" should always be on the negative of the Waffen-SS.

To see it in some filtered fantasy recruiting poster image is a closed minded narrow view, and that is no better than the Nazis, frankly speaking.

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All the Best
Jack

Southwestpacificvet

I read Ron's post and of course he is bias, but considering his background this is not surprising, nor, considering the events of WWII, would I hold it against him. The emphasis on the negative of the SS, or for all German armed forces of the Reich, however, is much much more due to decades of allied post war propaganda. A lot of it originated in the American entertainment industry instead of from scholars or even from allied vets (Canadian soldiers went out of their way to help Kurt Meyer in his trial for example). However, as much as Americans brought up in the stereotyped view of WWII dont want to believe it, the reality is that the German army of WWII contained some of the finest fighting individuals and units in history. Answer me this, if the emphasis should always be on the negative then why does this not apply to allied units as well? You did not comment on Vietnam vets? Or WWII vets who massacred unarmed German prisoners or collected Jap skulls? Or other fighting units in history? Should Caesar's legions be labeled as murders and criminals and their superb combat record ignored?

The topic of Ron's post concerned the young people who are enamored with the SS, to the point of posing in full uniform.

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All the Best
Jack

If you are talking about reenactors then I'd guess they chose the Waffen SS because they are enamored with the unsurpassed fighting spirit and ability of the elite Waffen SS units. If you're gona renact history, why not play the part of the toughest guys, the guys that were outnumbered but never gave up and fought like lions. Not only that but the camo outfits of the SS look very cool and in general, German equipment, was, in my mind and that of many other people, way cooler than that of the allies. They are not different than someone wearing a gladiator outfit or a Roman legion uniform. Dosent mean that they're some sort of sickos who want to slaughter Christian women and children in the circus!

If you're talking about skinhead types with swastikas, different story. To me they dishonor the German soldier of WWII by emphasis on the negative, racist, stereotype.

My apologies to the readers of this tread.

Having read Hawkmoon's posts; "hey Joe, I'm one of those people who thinks that the German Army was "way cool." .

The cat's out of the bag now.

Over and out,

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All the Best
Jack

To you who probably sees your stuff through movies, compared to Ron who served and lived through it, Jack who saw similar things himself. I'm 16, I watch movies/play games etc. but I always keep in mind WWII was REALITY.

Please get educated on the actual historical facts.

What cat is that?

Its too bad, I'm a history buff and hope to enjoy discussions with like-minded people. I'm not a holocaust denier nor do I believe in any racist stuff and in fact gladly embrace the cultural complexity of our planet. I acknowledge that there were elite formations and outstanding individuals in virtually all armed forces in WWII. I respect all who lived through those times (inc members of my own family).

However, I'm also fascinated by the fighting quality, training, equipment and personalities of German fighting formations of WWII. I also think that the allies too committed war crimes. I even believe that the third Reich had some very good ideas, example anti-smoking campaigns, organic farming, anti-factory farming, anti-fur trapping and got rid of animal experiments and emphasis on health and fitness. On the other hand I abhor the holocaust, discrimination against minorities, gays and lesbians etc.

If having those later opinions is frowned upon then its too bad, cause it only shows that some people here are still stuck in WWII and don't want to hear anything that contradicts their sterotype American propaganda view of the third Reich and its armed forces.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Sure, that's why they turned to experiments on humans.

See Dr. Sigmund Rascher's fine work, for instance.

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Za,

The validity of animal experiments is a controversial subject already but that's beside the point. Obviously, I oppose experiments on unwilling human subjects as well, duh! What does that have to do with me liking the idea of getting rid of animal experiments??? Are you so one track minded that you can't even admit that someone or something you don't like might also have some good qualities, views or ideas? Are you a pro-smoker cause the Reich was anti-smoking?

Personally I just laugh at most Waffen-SS re-enactors these days (going back on topic and away from Gay Action Figures).

As usual, I shall perform one of my notorious drive-bys on the subject (my daughter gets bigger and leaves me even less time on the PC! But she is my first so she takes precedence over the computer!!!)...

I used to be in a Waffen-SS renactment unit. Why? Well mainly as it was the first group I met with and I knew the guy who ran it so I joined as I have always had an interest in the German Armed forces and particuarly the Waffen-SS.

To be honest, just cos you dress up like a nazi, it doesnt equate to you being one. Most reenactors I know are fairly normal but I have seen first hand a few 'nutters'. Mostly, but not always. they seem to be in the Waffen-SS units and these groups do tend to attract the loonies. Dunno why... Must be the whole collar patch thing.

I left my re-enactment group cos I was fed up with seeing 30 something over weight men pretending to be soldiers. It gets to the point where it becomes ridiculous and most reenactors would look more at home in the Volksturm than the Waffen-SS. I now find the whole thing rather tedious and a little embarrasing. This coming from a man who plays with toy soldiers....

Sadly there is an undercurrent of right wing tendencies among those who join the groups. Again I think the uniform brings it out but I have heard some pretty unsavoury comments while re-enacting. But I also had plenty of positives from various people including veterans. After all, someone has to play the bad guys... without them how would the good guys win?

I see no reason to get worked up about it. Someone dressing up as a Waffen-SS trooper does no real harm, it is the actions of that person while wearing it that does that. I would also like to remark that the whole Salute 07 thing has been rather blown up by the media... I was there and it wasnt as described.



On the wider scene, the Waffen-SS has always been a fasination for people and the plethora of books on them suggets their popularity is not fleeting. Publishers know that an SS book will sell. How many people here own a book on the Waffen-SS? Is there much difference between owing books on them (many of which gloss over the unsavoury ecvents and concentrate on their fighting skills) and dressing up as one? Not really... Its all a form of fascination to a lower or greater extent.

History and the 'coffee table' book have parted company in the last few decades and the books on the SS are big sellers. There has been a tendency of some authors to paint the SS in glamourous language... Look at the work of James Lucas or Gordon Williamson. Both happily trot out old propaganda and call it history. Williamson's piece on Villers-Bocage is laughable.

So is it any wonder people think they are 'cool' and 'hard' when all they have been fed by populist historians is that exact image.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

This thread has it all!

From SS fanboys to gay action figures.

The problem is not whether YOU like getting rid of animal experiments, it is in your saying in the previous post that the "3rd Reich got rid of animal experiments". I found this interesting in the face of the said 3rd Reich using unwilling human experimental subjects. Hypocritical on their part at least, isn't it?

At least you show you don't agree with said use, as implied by your "duh".

Your counter-argument makes no sense: the Nazis walked on two legs, therefore would I walk on four?

Whatever accusations may be thrown at other countries are outside the scope of this thread, a new thread can be opened to discuss these. However no other country made persecution an official policy, such as expounded here.

I've wasted too much time here, I don't have much respect for a regime that promoted this, nor for people who adore them.

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