Ron,
It goes back to the old "let's see how many people we can annoy by wearing Nazi uniform" idea- same reason British bikers in the Sixties wore Jerry helmets and covered themselves in Swastikas and Iron Crosses.
Actually, I saw a bloke about 50 riding a Harley Davidson last weekend in a Jerry helmet. You'd think he might have grown up by now......

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

History has proven how awful the ranks were & to patronize a sect of evil individuals speaks volumes about ones personal ideology.

To think if prior to the Hitler regime your neighbors, your best friend, even your wife or girlfriend were deemed "undesireable" & were sent off to labor camps or worse, how could anyone justify actions by being an active participant unless they do not agree with a democracy or basic freedoms for that matter.

I know it was a different place, at a different time, & i'll never walk an inch in their shoes but its still mind boggling.

Ron, in my short time here i've enjoyed reading your posts & value your input as a veteran. I do hope you reconsider leaving the board.

I use MORTMAN a play on words for MORTARMAN i was A Mortar Platoon leader in the US ARMY ACTIVE.... maybe i should have Picked FALLSCRIMJAGER i was a paratoooper for a lot of years LOL

FALLSCHIRMJÄGER would be the right spelling in that case...

RAM

Ron, with all respect:

Every coin has two faces.Those posts most offensive to you were also offensive to other people, you should be able to have noticed the stout (not to say deeply annoyed) reaction put up by a significant number of members.

You should also have noticed the general lack of quality on the noisiest pro-nazi posters, and that one was simply expelled, another was put in the cooler, while others are finding it a rather difficult slog.

You are the master of your own decisions, but please be assured that the matter has not been given a rest.

As they said in another time and place, "No Pasarán!"

Signed,
Another awkward b*****d, if I may borrow the honour.

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Ron,
I don't think you should leave either. Most of the members here are like minded to yourself and I'm sure everyone appreciates getting a veterans view of things.

Now it does take some nerve...

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This is my first post, hopefully not the last, and I have *not* waded through all 7 pages of this thread yet. Please let me first of all voice my sincere appreciation that there are actual veterans of WW2 posting here, I am amazed, impressed and awed. A lot of people are too busy with real life to stoop to internet discussions, so we'll never see all of the existing opinions of those who were there, or of those that are academically or otherwise qualified to give one.

In any case, I have been living in Japan since 1998, and as an avid modeller and with an interest in history and martial arts, there are some inescapable facts to face: different cultures really are different, and the estimation and judgment made by one culture on another by virtue of what one sees and experiences of that other culture are effectively worthless---if anything is to be learnt from another culture, it is by actually living it and seeing what it has to offer, and make use of those things.

This is really brought home in many ways every day, even in modelling, where the most popular subjects in military modelling after Imperial Japanese Army and Navy subjects are, well, German subjects of WW2. Nobody gives a fig about the meaning of the swastika and its possible offence to people living in countries dominated by the Nazi jackboot, and discussions about the evils of the Nazi regime are considered entirely independent of the subject of modelling. The overriding reason for the interest is purely technical, since many of the most powerful vehicles or aircraft were built by the Germans. It is just as true that Russian and US aircraft are popular for these reasons, and I cannot detect any ideological reasons for preferring the Nazi aircraft. Cool colour schemes are another reason of course, for modelers. I have never seen any argument in Japan that somehow supports the Nazi cause. The odd case of excitement does occur when the causes of the Pacific War are considered, but I can put these arguments down squarely to complete ignorance of basic economics and politics, something that affects all but about 1% of the populations of all industrialized nations :-)

Sensitivity is something that is not unknown in Japan though; for example, the school of martial arts I was at for many years does not publicly (that is, outside of special classes and seminars where people need to go purposely) teach sword techniques, since many students from Asian nations drop in for casual classes or to watch, and the older generation (among those training who are over 80 or 90) well appreciates how the Japanese sword is viewed in many of these nations.

Just my 2 cents worth, food for thought I hope.

Perhaps the SS 're-enactors' could 're-enact' the time the SS POWs spent on Wrangel Island, after capture by the Russians.

NONE survived.


OJ

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"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". - Voltaire.

Its funny though...

No-one is bothered by the Soviet re-enactors are they.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Any survivors of the SS Dirlenwagers brigade???. I want to know something about this unit, is there any book or sum can give info plz??

thx

Ok this is sure to stir up a hornets nest and probably get me jumped on..... but im gonna put my take on reeanctors for a moment.. While i was working On my Undergraduate Degree in history I too was a reenactor for 2 summers at Fort Snelling outside of minneapolis... One Summer I played the role of a Soldier assigned to the fort in the late 1850's.... the folllowing summmer I played the role at the park of a homesteader/farmer. in the 1850's.. I wore the authentic uniform and garb of the day... I learned a lot about life in that era and i hoped i helped educate a few people as well... But i sure as hell wouldnt wana live in that era... I enjoy My ipod... the ability to drive from point a to point b. I like modren medicine and dentistry a LOT.

I think a lot of these reenactors start thinking THEY lived in that era or served in the civil war, ww2 etc.... Fact is in reality they havent a clue really what it was like.. So these folks start goose stepping in nazi jackboots and wearing the deaths head on theyre hats... and they think because they portray these sinister bastards maybe the WAFFEN SS and gestapo were Like them... Nice guys just doing theyre jobs... and it was fun... because they dont commit atrocities therefore the Real Waffen SS didnt either.... We all know they did and no amount of rationalization is gonna change the fact that theyre are numerous personal accounts and documents backing up these FACTS...

Gee because i played a farmer from the plains of Minnesota in 1854 can i give ya advice on making a sod house or explain how back breaking it was to plow a field day in and day out using a horse drawn plow?.. I dont think so...

A lot of reeanctors think theyre EXPERTS, and they honestly know what it was like.. Frankly they know a bit more then the avarege joe blow on the block... but they still arent the people they portray and they sure as helll didnt really serve in these historical units in real live combat...

I kinda see reenactors in the same vein as airsofters... theyre still playing war... The reality war isnt a game.. and I am a combat veteran.... I know from first hand experiance.... You can tell me all the stats facts and figures on this or that units involvement at kursk... but you my friend WERE NOT THEYRE.... and for gods sake stop trying to gloss over the facts just because you admire a uniform or some sort of warrior image you have in your mind about some said unit or personell.... Dont lie to yourself... 99% of most reenactors as just as cluless to what it was really like as JOHN Q PUBLIC... difference is most people dont try to gloss over or legitimize atrocities.. and we dont spend Hundreds on uniforms and mock weapons to "PLAY ACT"

Reenactors can provide a wealth of good information and they do keep history alive which is a good thing... but ya also gotta stick to the facts... And the fact is the WAFFEN SS and other nazi fantical groups were some evil sobs... I dont care if some guy held off an entire russian tank brigade for god and fatherland one day... i bet the week before he helped shoot pows or raised some russian village full of the elderly, Women and kids...

Stop playing war and learn the damm truth...

I hope folks in the future dont start Strutting around in Digital ACU uniforms playing modern us army soldiers and or wearing the garb of an Al queda terrorist or some taliban fanatic... people will probably glorfy them too... Wearing a vest packed with explosives and walking around it it will become "COOL" and theyll start saying how the taliban were "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" and "Patriots"... and how the trade center was actually a US government conspircay and al those people didnt really Die on 9/11....

Ron,

You bring knowledge and experience to this forum. I doubt I’m in the minority with the invitation for you to continue here with more threads and frequent posts.

I agree with all you say, but once the precedent for the W-SS is opened, who is going to keep anyone to reenact Al Qaeda or Hezbollah or whatever sometime in the near future? Why, are they any less palatable than the W-SS?

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I have to take acception with equating "Airsofters" with Reenacting. I reenact in a historical context. I don't go around shooting people with a toy gun. I unlike them do not "Play at war". "You're Dead! NO Im not! " LOL. Or actully shooting at someone. My weapon is real LOL. I try to the best of my abilities and knowledge,and I am certainly no "Expert", to portray what camp life ,tactics and views were of an average Civil War soldier was during that period. Hoping to spark an interest in someone to go and learn more on the subject. And there are reenactors who are much more Hardcore then I am. I reenact as an educational tool .Not to "Play". And I in no way claim to be a soldier of that era or any other. Far from it.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I doubt that, I can't imagine anyone...

RAM

In Ireland there is a group that recreates IRA and Black & Tans from the Irish Civil War.

To the credit of the Irish they manage to get away with reenacting two forces that fought with such venom and brutallity it is often very disturbing.

But they see it as a way of keeping history alive regardless of the atrocities BOTH sides dished out.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Still In my mind, The memebers of this forum who are ww2 vets Are Tresures and its a damm shame some lil nazi wanabe irked this poor guy so much he left.... and JC i wasnt refering to you personally. I was referring to the punk kids who WANABE nazis... Last year when I went to G burg with my son The highlight of our trip was seeing the Battle REENACTED.... OH and JC im a Fan of the FIRST MINNESOTA LOL.....

TO me perosnally the taliban and Al queda are real distastful.... at least the SS Stood and fought rather then planting IEDS or donning suicide vests on women and kids and teling them to detonate it in a group of GIS... One thing make no mistake I DESPISE nazis.... and this may sound harsh but the only good nazi in my mind has been dead for 6 days

No prob there. I understand . Its funny that the two posters in question have yet to grace this thread nor the site for quite some time. It is my belief tha neither were looking to join a reenacting unit but just wanting to wear an Waffen SS uniform.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Yeah, and as a consequence that great man Ron Goldstein became disgusted and left. Shame!

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