On another thread on this forum, “Age to rank question”, a newcomer tells his fellow members about his possible purchase of an SS uniform and his desire to make the uniform as authentic as possible.

I was sorely tempted to respond by asking the gentleman in question whether or not he would be willing to pay more for the uniform if there were visible blood stains?

If my attitude immediately comes across as being less than what could be regarded as welcoming, I would ask you to consider that I write as a “Vet” who has been posting on WW2 forums for many a year and as one who has recently ceased posting on another forum, because of his feelings towards a particular re-enactment group that venerates the 2nd Waffen SS Division, “famed” for it’s Oradour sur Glane atrocity.

For the benefit of newer members who may not know me, my well documented background shows I was the youngest of five brothers who served in WW2, one of whom was to lose his life in Bomber Command and my family tree shows quite a few gaps where cousins who were living in France in the ‘40s perished in the Holocaust.

I mention the above merely so that everyone will know exactly where I am coming from.

First of all, let me be quite clear, I claim no merit at all in being a “Vet”, you simply have to have taken part in WW2 and still be alive, or indeed any dispensation for what may be considered my unpopular views, but I trust that what I have to say on the subject will at least be considered as fair comment and given a hearing.

My question to the SS re-enactors is as follows:

I would be extremely obliged if any re-enactor who go in for dressing up as a member of the SS would explain to me the nature of his “cause” and what benefits he feels he derives from the re-enactor unit activities.

Ron Goldstein

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During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

The only benefit I see is that a 'loyal opposition' is needed, one can't all be Cops, some have to be Robbers. Besides, not all Waffen SS were volunteers, by the later period a sizable number was drafted or transferred from other Armed Forces branches, but I don't think this is what is generally in people's minds.

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I believe most people tend to forget the "dirty" side of the SS and only regard their prowesses on the battlefield (at least, I hope that is it) tough in Portugl certain groups who do reinactments are really Neo-Nazis. But for the common Joe I at least think and hope that is it.
I personally would have no trouble getting into a german uniform for a WWII airsoft game tough I don't think I could go to an SS type unit.



Cheers...

Interesting question Mr. Goldstein.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Of course after one "has seen the elephant" the perspective is different.

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Exactly Za. Pretty much says it all. Most do wear Waffen SS Uniforms because it looks "Cool"And it is a good question there Ron. If you notice on my posts you can see a photo of myself in a Confederate Army uniform LOL. I have been asked alot of questions over the years as to the reason I wear it. And funny as it sounds when I first started reenacting the main reason was that it looked "cool" and was easier to put together then a Union Army one LOL. But over the years I wear it to honor those who have fell in battle defending their land and country. Not for the Slavery that has become associated with it. On the other side of the coin I have also portrayed a soldier of H co. 4th Ohio Volunteer Infantry Regt and was one of the founding members of the first 54th Mass Volunteer Infantry Regt units here in the NW. A "Negro" or "Colored" unit. I portray both side proudly. For myself if I were to reenact WWII I would not reenact a Waffen SS trooper.I would rather portray Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe if I had to choose.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

Well said Ron.

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All the Best
Jack

Gentlemen

Thanks for all your responses to date.

I was particularly pleased to receive Jack's approval, we "oldies" must surely think on similar lines in such evocative matters ?

I looked back a few threads and see that I missed Jack's arrival on this forum and so failed to welcome him, consider yourself well & truly greeted Jack and, as I say to all my peers, keep taking the tablets !

Best regards

Ron

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During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

You are most welcome Ron. I think that most of us chaps getting on in years have a little better grasp then some of the young ones here when it come to WWII LOL.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

Mr. Goldstein, maybe as the daughter of a Veteran I too am biased.

I've finally got my head around the idea that on a game someone might choose to play the German side from a purely strategic concept, but I don't know why anyone would want to portray an SS soldier of any rank. I also have a problem with the idea of the 12th Panzer division - but that's probably because of Kurt Meyer and the murder of Canadian POWs. I also acknowledge the validity of Miguel's idea that someone has to portray the opposition but one would think that the choice of SS should be abhorrent.

It seems to me that reenactor groups should ensure that before people take on a part that they should receive instruction or be strongly directed to research the history of the units they wish to portray. It would help either take away the glamour for those purely attracted by the uniform and would quickly identify those who you might wish to not have members if they actually became more attracted to the idea of an SS unit after reading about its history. My two cents on the subject.

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Regards, Michelle

Oliver Goldsmith, "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines."

I have noticed that the poster in question has yet to comment LOL. From his comments and questions in the thread where he has posted I get the idea that he is not part of a reenacting unit. As he was asking about Waffen SS ranks in general. As far as I know most reenacting units do not allow you to choose a rank when you join but start you out as a private.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

Hi Ron, Sir, well-said. Though i've known and been friends with German vets-thankfully all of them had been serving in white units. In a letter I sent to a Victoria Cross Recipient (Captain Richard Wallace Annand of the Durham Light Infantry, to be exact) I had asked him what he thought about reenactors and what he thought about the Waffen SS-knowing that I had been good friends with one man who was a Knights Cross Recipient, I thought he might not like the idea but I was wrong. If you will excuse me, im having to leave since computers shut down-ill finish this next time.

Take care--Carl.

I've never given it much thought of ever reenacting anything-cept maybe as an American Frontiersman-such as Daniel Boone and or Davy Crockett.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I think there is also a different mindset with some who are a "Reenactor" and those who want to wear the uniform for other reasons then for example it being "Cool".

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

I have debaited with myself as to whether to join this discussion for I fear it may get a little heated, but alas I am here.

I must say that I am gripped by the German side of the war, it may be beacuse I am young and did not experenice they things some of the older members did, but I am fasinated by the German military, even the SS.


I would wear any uniform of any nation from any conflict whether it was German Wehrmact, Luftwaffe or even the SS, but purely from a reenactors point of view, how do you illiustrate a realistic and historical Waffen SS tank travelling down a road without wearing there uniforms? I am in no way defending the SS or the Nazis but it is our history, a piece of black history, but history none the less, and to show it correctly it must be shown exactly right, but not to glorify the SS troops but simply display they way they were, I have read many references of the fighting spirit of the Waffen SS and there ability to hold the allies advances over the Wehrmact, but they are continous over shadowed by those units that simply shamed Germany.

Ron I respect you point of view and your feelings, and am no way saying that you are wrong, because after all you were there, but in terms of reenactors, as long as they are not tying to glorify them I think it is fine.

But if we take this one step further to movies, how do you reenact a scene from history of a waffen SS unit shooting allied pow's? Since after all they to are reenactors.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

Good point. The intent, thought, and motivation are important factors. However, it would also depend on who is the making the movie and their bias. As we've seen there are movies made by people who get carried away with the story's dramatics and illusions without knowing historical fact. For example, the latest Elizabeth I movie with Cate Blanchett where the director said he didn't care about history just having a good movie story! You could have someone who is illinformed decide to put the German characters in Waffen SS uniforms because they liked the look. It's another reason people who do know fact from fiction have to keep the writers, the reenactors, the filmmakers honest by insisting that their stories are grounded in fact.

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Regards, Michelle

Oliver Goldsmith, "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines."

Just a note: While I answered the questions asked on the thread in question, I did so in a dispasionate manner. That is, I simply provided the asked for information as I would in any other thread. In that way it adds to one's knowledge and might be useful to others too.

As for silliness and uniforms: Without a doubt the most distrubingly weird thing I've seen in this respect was at a wargame convention in Los Angeles many years ago. There was a somewhat overweight black fellow wandering around the whole weekend dressed in an SS Sturmbahnführer uniform! I still kick myself for not getting a picture....that was just too weird!

Like I said IMO he probably isn't getting the uniform to be a "reenactor".

There was this little uproar about the same time last year.

'Neo-Nazis infiltrate WWII re-enactment group'

By Graham Tibbetts
Last Updated: 2:08AM BST 25/08/2007



A British re-enactment society that has portrayed the SS in films and on television has been infiltrated by neo-Nazis, according to a BBC investigation.
People associated with the Second Battle Group, which featured in Steven Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan, claimed they were members of the far-Right Blood and Honour organisation and complained of German blood being tainted by "jigaboos".
The claims were made in footage filmed by the BBC Panorama unit, which followed the SBG during a show in Kent this summer.
The SBG was set up in 1978 and describes itself as "Britain's longest-serving Second World War living history and historical society".
According to its website, the aim of the group is "not to glorify war or the Nazi regime but … to portray the fighting German Waffen SS soldier of WWII as accurately as possible." At public displays its members, who number 200, portray scenes from throughout the war, while wearing replica uniforms and using authentic weapons and vehicles.
Panorama, due to be broadcast on Monday, used a hidden camera to record one of the senior members of the SBG in the beer tent. The man, identified as Glen Swallow, was heard to say: "If it (the Waffen SS) existed now, I would join. I believe we should be sorting these Muslims out."
Another man from the Netherlands claimed he was part of Blood and Honour. A German man, called Boris, from a Luftwaffe re-enactment group, said: "We are losing our country, losing our blood because of jigaboos. Our blood is not any more fresh."
In April, the SBG sparked outrage when children were allowed to wear the brown shirts of the Hitler Youth and sell Nazi memorabilia at Salute '07 in the Docklands, organised by the South London Warlords wargames society, according to The Jewish Chronicle.
The society apologised and vowed not to invite the SBG back.
Gerry Gable, the publisher of Searchlight, the international anti-fascist magazine said the Government should "look at the licensing of these organisations".
On its website, the SBG said: "The SBG is acutely aware of its controversial portrayal in this hobby and is a totally non-political organisation.
People with paramilitary, ideological or extreme views will NOT be accepted as members."
There is no suggestion that any neo-Nazis were involved in the filming of Saving Private Ryan.
In a statement issued through its lawyers, the SBG said: "The views alleged to have been made by members of the SBG are, in the opinion of the SBG, fascist, racist and utterly reprehensible and as such are views we strongly oppose.
Having been brought to our attention we will carry out an internal investigation into such allegations on the basis that these are not views endorsed by the group or with which we want be associated with in any way."

'Neo-Nazis infiltrate WWII re-enactment group' - Telegraph

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

Friends

I do thank you all for your valued comments, although I do note that, as others have pointed out, replies from SS re-enactors themselves are conspicuous by their absence.

Not unexpectedly there has been firm support for re-enactment itself and I have absolutely no quarrel with this whatsoever although I do confess to being slightly amused at the thought of, in some cases, very overweight individuals rushing about on mock battlefields, carrying heavy equipment, at some personal risk to themselves and others

The nub of the re-enactment matter is in the phrase that Tomcat used above (I hope he will forgive me for correcting the odd typo).

Tomcat says "as long as they are not trying to glorify them I think it is fine"

It is the very act of glorification of the personification of an accepted evil that sticks in my craw and this is the sole reason for my raising the subject in the first place.

I mentioned in my original posting that I had left another forum because I felt unable to be a member of a site that included a 2nd Waffen SS re-enactor.

I now consider that this may have been a mistake on my part and I will not repeat it here so I am afraid that, moderators permitting, you will continue to be subjected to my views on this subject.

Regards to all

Ron

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During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

I have noticed that too Ron. IMO he wasn't a "reenactor". And I have no problem with you posting your views here .

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented