This guy is the reason I have not been on here a lot lately CHURCHILL STARTED THE BLITZ AND BATTLE OF BRITAIN WAS WON BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE FEW OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE AND THOSE FOREIGN ALLIES WHO ALSO SERVED WITHIN.

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WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

My apologies, just trying to be cute and failing at the task, miserably.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Hello hucks216,

sorry, neither am I too literate about him. I remember reading that during the Boer War he already had a grudge against Germans. I remember a movie called 'Young Winston Churchill" were I also got this impression.

Well maybe some more knowledgable members here can help to clear up our views.

Regards
Kruska

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The world is grey - not black and white

WTID, I hope you won't let one person keep you from the site. I have always found your posts to be knowledgeable and insightful. Keep them coming.

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"Faint heart never won fair maiden", so I say "Go for it!"

Lou

It was Churchill's overall impression of the German nation as aggressors on the European mainland which shaped his "wary" stance (not hatred) concerning them. He had studied the aggression of the Franco-Prussian War, participated at the highest level in the First World War, and now was now embroiled in the Second.

One must remember that the Boers in South Africa were not "Germans" per se, but german dialect speaking descendants of a Dutch splinter group of the Dutch Reform Church, who had moved to south Africa’s Cape so as to escape religious persecution and to make money supplying Dutch ships with fresh vegetables and meats as they rounded the horn on their way to and from the East Indies.

In the 18th Century another splinter group of French Huguenots joined them in the area. So when the young Churchill went to serve in the "Second Boer War" at the end of the 19th Century, he wasn’t fighting against "Germans", he was fighting a mix of Dutch and French settlers who had split off from their own nations, speaking an "Africaner" dialect which was neither German nor Dutch anymore.

The Boer's attitude toward racial inferiors was a fore runner of the Nazi racial ladder, and held on well into the twentieth Century with apartide in South Africa. Not bad things to dislike overall.

They (Boers) were carrying German weapons (the Mauser rifle for example), but not supplied by Germany directly. They also carried Winchesters and Remingtons. Churchill himself carried and dearly loved his own Mauser "broomhandle" semi-automatic pistol (C-96), since Mauser simply made some of the best weapons of the moment.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Churchill warned GB of the danger of Nazi Germany but was called a waremonger. He was a man of foresite who loved his country and hated anything that threatened it whether Nazis ( Finest Hour speech ) or Communist Russia ( iron Curtain Speech). Take time to listen to his speeches, no ranting or raving, given in a measured tone with no false promises. Winston knew his audience well. When he describes the Nazis you can hear his hatred for them.
A great orator you can find his quotations by simply googling his name .Some display an impish sense of humours others a fine understanding of life. His books are heavyweight reading.quote" History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
The thread name Was Churchill Overated should be Will we ever see the likes of Winston Churchill again.

Hello brndirt1 and rhs,

thanks for the added information. The way I see it, Churchill set his country above all others but to the extend that he disliked what others (e.g.germans) did, demanded or displayed - but he wouldn't hesitate to do just the same for himself or Britain.

As such Germany was an obvious rival or even the most dangerous opponent to his beloved Britain.

So I guess that he was no different from any other politician of his generation - with one destinction, he just wouldn't give in and therefore he wasn't a man of compromise. As such one might call him a hardliner and due to the century he was living in the most obvious "enemy" or "threat" to him and the British Empire was Germany even before the Nazis.

So I guess that I am quite close as having him identified as being anti German -maybe not a hater - for plausible reasons from his point of view.

Regards
Kruska

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The world is grey - not black and white

Kruska

Your placing your euro cents on the wrong bet.
Take some time to read Churchills own books, and you will find that there is no hate against germans. Hitlers gang is another story...

In the years befor the NSDAP came to power there was a general mood in the British public that the French were beeing to hard on the Germans. (payment of war damages etc.)

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

I have a link to Churchill's speeches here.

Winston Churchill Speeches

To learn more about Winston Churchill from online sources (some well-respected and researched books would also be educational!):

Winston Churchill - Biography

This one is quite thoroug:
Sir Winston (Leonard Spencer) Churchill Biography - Biography.com

The Official Churchill Biography


A Winston Churchill Biography

Winston Churchill Biography,Winston Churchill The Legend,Winston Churchill Interviews,Winston Churchill biography for kids,,Winston Churchill Autobiography, Winston Churchill, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, Fraklin Roosevelt, Oxfordshire, England

The Churchill Papers: Biography

Books about Churchill:

Winston Churchill biography - Google Books


Just a few. As others have said - he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. Can we say that we have been as fortunate since?

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Regards, Michelle

Oliver Goldsmith, "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines."

Look theres no agenda here and i will admit i was being hard,but only because controversal statements usually get better answers,
Personally i can take or leave churchill although i do think he is over glorified.

I got some good answers too before the brit defender club kicked in but i've seen this before so i'm not perturbed.

I thought the question was a good one,would britain have capitulated if it wasnt for churchill,
could chamberlin if he was allowed to continue on kept going until the end of the war,

As for the blitz,hitler only ordered the blitz after british bombers under orders from churchill bombed german cities in retaliation for german accidental bombings of british cities.

relax people

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WDIT45: slick

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Just look into the Gallipoli campaign. I hate the arrogant pommie bastard.
No not british hater just that pompas twat.
I apologise for language if I offended anyone

Most of you wont realise it but Gallipoli is sacred to most Australians and the more we learn of the campaign , the more churchill is to blame as are the british higher officers there who used Aussies and Kiwis as fodder.
A.N.Z.A.C.s forever

Macker 33 its WTID45! and what a croc of SH!T "Germans accidentally bombed british cities" First phase 1940, 10 July to mid August Luftwaffe objective is to win superiority in the air over the channel and southern England.In the second phase the aim was to destroy the RAF as a fighting force by attacking its fighters, its airfields and installations.In the third phase 7 September to 27 September the Luftwaffe attacked London and attempted to foece RAF fighters into the air in order to destroy them.In the fourth and final phase 27 September to 31 October the Luftwaffe concentrated on night bombing of London andother major cities, WHICH CONTINUED LONG AFTER THE OFFICIAL END OF THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN.Now your statement that Germans accidently bombed british cities is not true.On the night of August 1940 a group of Heinkel bombers missed their targets at Rochester and Tameshaven, inadvertently, but against Hitlers express command , they released their bombs on the city of London so can we call this an accident

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WHEN YOU GO HOME, TELL THEM OF US AND SAY, FOR YOUR TOMORROW,WE GAVE OUR TODAY. Epitaph on the Kohima memorial .

I think you will find that MOST people do know that. This isn't the official Brittny Spears Fan Club site.

In addition the ANZAC's have been banging on about this for some years now.
As for the Darnadelles and useless officers. No different on the western front mate. The casualties were just as horrible there.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Hello Kruska, I agree with a lot of what you say in your last post but possibly for different reasons.
Churchill was immensley proud of his country and so would set it above all others.The British Empire had passed its zenith but Hitler did say GB could keep as part of the peace offers he made.
You believe that Churchill did the same as Germany did, demanded or displayed. After the WW1 Germany was disorganised and probably a bigger threat to itself than other countries.With the rise to power of Hitler and the Nazis Churchill recognised the threat to Europe which proved correct. First by Annexation then by force of war Hitler set out to colonise both the west and the east.If he had succeeded there would be no free world as we know it.
I do not believe that GB won the war .The Allies together did that. GB was the first country not to fall to the Nazis and so became the worlds largest aircraft carrier and enabled the Normandy Invasion to take place.
Churchill bound our nation together and kept it free until the USA entered the war as an ally. Had it been left to other politicians all of us would now be speaking German. With the British Empire in Hitlers hands he would have had no need to attack Russia. All the imports he needed, fuel from Persia and the Gulf states. Which way would Canada, South Africa and Australia have gone.Germany's living space that Hitler demanded ?
Love him or hate him Churchill has had a great bearing on the lives of many of us today. We shall soon be gone from this world and who will speak our names in 50 years time?

Hello rhs,

I do completely agree with your opinion about Churchill in regards to the Nazis - if not for him - propably mad Hitler would have gotten his way.

But this is and was never an issue to me, my part for dislike about Churchill is his attitude against Germany before Hitler. And in those days/decades there were politicians and those who liked Germany, were neutral to Germany or disliked Germany or even hated Germany.

Thats all

Regards
Kruska

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The world is grey - not black and white

Hello Jaeger,

Try and read 'Mein Kampf" (even though I think it is impossible for anyone to acctually read this retarded "book" all the way).

And you will find that there is no hate against Britain. Hitler actually analyses judges them as 'brothers" which I personally find absolutly hillarious.

So personally I believe that it is not advisable to read a historical/political book that was written by a politician in order to judge the author "true" believes.

Jaeger, are you back home or in some messy place?

Regards
Kruska

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The world is grey - not black and white

Kruska.

By "writing Hitler and his gang" I was aiming at Churchill sternly opposed them.

I did read Mein Kampf som 15 years ago. Shoddy painter, shoddy writer. No other choice than becoming a dictator

I am in Norway for the time beeing.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Brian Boru retreated fast enough didn't he.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

To be honest I dont think Churchill had much time for any one outside of GB or the USA . He was born into Aristocracy with anglo american parents and was a right wing politician prone to changing his affiliations.He was what we call a Maverick with different ways a seeing things which did not make him popular in government circles.

It must also be said, apart from upper class circles, the general feeling in GB after WW1 was at the best dislike and at the worst hatred of Germany. This was probably mirrored by most of the German population who had a worst a time.

It is difficult for us to think as people did in those times , our life experiences are so very different.I purchased a BMW and my mother in law refused to travel in it when she realised it was German ,(her sister was killed in the Birmingham blitz) and that was 15 years ago. I have had Citroens ever since.
Your thoughts I would say are correct but to understand his attitudes will require further reading which only yourself can decide its worth....richardS

Churchills writings are nothing like Mien Kamf. His " History of the English Speaking People" was much acclaimed. It was history not a political manifesto. Many of our soldiers became Members of Parliament after the wars and wrote honest and informative books..

Mein Kampf is utterly horrible, kudos to you for enduring it..

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Best World War 2 Comics

Churchill was haunted by the Dardanelles for the rest of his life, It appears to be the cause of a great many of his 'Black Dogs', and even engendered a rare hesitance in the man whenever any kind of Amphibious assault was mooted.
It may have destroyed him at the time the Cromer Report came out (no matter if that document was a whitewash or not, it still crippled him politically). But it can still be viewed by me as a good thing in the overall long-term that he stayed in politics.

If he had not, or had fully slunk away to Journalism or painting I just can't picture any British politician of the period that could have Galvanised resistance to Hitler in 1940 as WSC did. From Day one he saw the war as a World conflict, in a manner that many others refused to believe possible (either through blind hope, disbelief that it was all happening again as it had in 14-18, or pure ill-judgement). That foresight alone was such an important factor in why he was the right man for WW2, and had the good judgement, not shared by all of his peers, to court the USA from the start.

Combine that galvanisation of resistance with the diplomatic offensive on the USA right up to Pearl harbour and you have two of the absolutely crucial factors in defeating Hitler across the entire war revolving at several points purely around the willpower of one peculiar old man, who had been apparently washed up so many times in his career.
I feel you can't overrate him in WW2 terms, he was utterly central to the successful outcome, and despite his faults other viewpoints are largely sophistry.

Though I do sometimes wonder what would have happened without Alanbrooke there to counter and calm WSCs wilder schemes and impulses. And importantly; place the right men in the right diplomatic/military positions, showing a fine skill in diverting WSC away from some potentially poor choices of men. I feel quite strongly that not enough credit is given to the two men as a team. Both remarkable figures, but combined, the sum was even greater than the parts.

~A

Churchill saw Hitler for what he stood for, he was shouted down so to say in the mid 1930's. How many of those who shouted him down in 1940? Churchill stood his ground in our darkest hour and thankfully he was the right man who was not going to bow down to Hitler. Churchill was not perfect and made errors but he stood with his people and got the job done.

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yes

Well that certainly adds a lot to the debate and increases our knowledge on the subject.

Dont be shy Komrade .Please put forward your viewpoint, we would all like to see it.