I don't agree. 12.SS was far from 'elite' because they did not manage to achieve that much.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Yes ,this is the same 12th SS that executed Canadian prisnors of the 3rd Inf Div in Normandy. This understandably resulted in retaliation in kind from the candians. The two divisions fought in some of the bitterest combat of the war. These men were just that, men, not children, they were recruited as children and brought up on a diet of propaganda, but they were adults, and as such responsible for their actions.

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

I must disagree. The 12SS was an elite unit that made significant contributions in the defensive battles in Normandy and in the east. You cannot tell me that depriving the British of Caen for that length of time is not significant. Also holding the bottleneck open at Falaise. All this from what you call "Children".

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Sorry PzJgr, but the 12th SS at the time of Normandy was nowhere an eliete unit. Having a cadre of the 1st SS and the 9/10ths make-up of 17-18 yr old Hiter Jugend does not constitute a battle hardened formation. If there were elite statis given to any Pz Ss units then it would be the 1st and 2nd SS and lesser extent the 9th and 10th whcih served on the eastern front briefly.
501 and 502 SS Pz. Abt. came via the first two units mentioned so they must be considered quite good, in fact probably the 502nd due to the amount of Allied tanks destroyed.
As the time of the Ardenne as been mentioned recrutis were installed within 12th SS ranks to fill the depleted unit out, in fact all the SS Pz formations were a bit on the weak side come Decmeber 44.........you knew this already though.....

E

I guess it depend how exactly you define 'elite'. There have been units given elite status before they have even seen combat. Paratroopers from most countries were called elite simply on the basis of their roll, which required long periods without support behind enemy lines. The Pz Lehr was considered elite because it was made up of experianced instructors. But they had seen combat in different units not together. The 1st and 2nd SS were still called elite in Dec 44, even thogh they ere shadows of their former selves, woith many of the exoerianced men either dead to sent to form othe units.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I would agree that a unit cannot be called elite when they have not seen battle but I think we would agree that the 12th has earned that status. All of the Waffen SS units were a shadow of their former selves. At the end of the war even the Grossdeutschland was not what it use to be but that does not mean that it was not considered an elite unit. I consider the 12th and elite unit as do others here judging by the list on Friedrich's post of the top 10 units. I respect your opinion but stand by mine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Just reading on this on Charles Messenger´s "Hitler´s Gladiator " on Sepp Dietrich.

It is mentioned that the massacre is brodcasted on Soldatensender Calais ( British propaganda radio station ) on 21th Dec 1944 but the area was not in allied hands until mid-January. Why didn´t the Germans take away the bodies if they all knew about it some days after it happened? I don´t say it did not happen just amazed that "if everyone knew why nobody in the German side checked the place?"... Or were they afraid of what might be found?

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You would think that if the massacre was intentional, they would have at least buried the bodies in a mass grave. Does this give credance to the latest theory that it was not an intentional massacre per se and just came about after the attempted escape by a few?

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

With the speed and pressure of the advance, and then the retreat, I think that burying bodies wouldn't have been a priority for the German forces. They didn't really have the strength to occupy territory as such, and the area concerned was snow-covered from just after the massacre. The snow fell on ground which was already frozen making any digging activity very difficult.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

They were killed simply because to have taken them prisoner would have required resources in men and material that were needed to continue the attack.
As for burying them, again that would have held them up.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

I suppose in the end the German commanders did not care anymore as they had their hands full already. However I do find that if they were ( and they were ) aware of this kind of massacre through the allied broadcast they should have checked it properly and not just wipe it under carpet that "The German army does not do those things!" This includes Sepp as well unfortunately.

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That statement would cause a few raised eyebrows on the Eastern Front [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!