Agree Carl. This clam of just following orders does apply. There is a difference between someone who users that after being told to shot woman and chilren, and a pilot who is told to bomd this or that target. Its no diferent to an artllery gunner who is told to shell this or that target which happens to have civilians in the area. But the line between actaul murder and the deaths of civilians who are in the wrong place is becoming blured. And while its unfortunate, it happens. Although in some cases, it happens un-nessaceraly, as in Dresden. And here, its those at the top who should be held to account, not the guys on the ground, or in this case in the air.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

[ 30. October 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I am not going to get in a slugging match over this, but this thread has been debated for well over 35 plus years. As mentioned by Friedrich, Dresden was an old city full of charm and elegance and had no significant military value as a target whatsoever. In talking with two NJG 5 pilots and one from NJG 6 who were up on the night in February of 45; missed the RAF bomber stream totally, but watched the horror of the burning city / there remarks were ones of soldiers. The RAF struck a German city to put fear into the hearts of the German populace. it was a raid to bring the German people to the brink of crumbling, but it did nothing to effect them except to give the Germans more resolve into fighting for their homeland. With the issuance of the US bombing raid right after and the US fighter groups strafing innocent civilians, it proved to them that this mission would be successful in breaking and tearing down the moral attitude of the people both in the farm and the city, and the Allied air forces could strike anywhere as they pleased........

E

Well said bish--there is always a fine line between an act of war and an act of murder.

And I have a surprise for you which ill put to your attention--it has to do with Ribbon bars--and the Freikorps book by Schiffer. Also--I got a surprise today on one of my ribbon bars--I had not known I also had one that once belonged to the Grand Duke of Mecklinburg-Schwerin--ill explain in that topic put to your attention.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

As I re-started this thread, can I just repeat that my intention was to straighten out the misperception of 'Harris personal vendetta against Dresden' which can be disproven by historical documentation, and NOT to get embroiled in the 'was bombing justified' debate which will go on forever.

( Talking of historic, non-militarily-significant places, anyone been to Bath......? )

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

The bombing of Axis cities to effect civilian casualties was the most shameful side of WWII.
The destruction of Dresden, etc. has to be examined in a post-war context, as it had no effect whatsoever on the military outcome of the war. There are those who argue that the goal was no more than simply the desctruction of the German people, and, in light of the few other possibilities, only this makes any sense.
Re: the A-Bomb, there is always historical misunderstanding. First, the decision to use the bomb was proposed and approved by politicians: there was no military support for it.
The military knew that the Japanese were trying to surrender. Their one condition: that they retain the Emperor and he not be tried for war crimes, never changed. The Allied demand for "unconditional" surrender was not met.

Isn't war itself the most shameful side of mankind?

I know this sounds a bit retorical, but I just had to say it. Both sides commit crimes in all wars ever fought. And both sides will always underline the crimes of their opponent. Thats the way it is.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Timo:
Agreed, but I am not talking about military conflict. Dresden was an attempt to destroy the German "people." Like Hiroshima, its ends were political. The term "Total War" means that civilians are involved in the conflict, but, it is not an excuse for genocide.

HI Guys, Please explain to me why you disapprove of the Dresden bombing.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

You're kiddin'?

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Hi Timo: I'm not kidding. I have studied the bombing of Dresden and would like to know why Dresden has been picked out and put under a magnifying glass. It was a legitimite target.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

In this country, it has a lot to do with David Irving's book, 'The Destruction of Dresden', published in 1963.

It has entered the lexicon of war in the same way that 'Malmedy' has. In terms of damage/size/suffering, it's arguable that the Pforzheim raid was almost as destructive - but who mentions it today ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Steve,
First of all, responsible military leadership does not specifically target civilians.
This becomes more unacceptable when talking about the civilian population of a defeated country.
There WAS a reason for Dresden, as there was a reason for Hiroshima, but, these are political discussions. Trying to legitimate these actions as military decisions is very difficult. Unless you want to argue that crippling Germany's ability to output porcelein figurines was of strategic significance.

Dresden was a legitimate military target. "As a primary communications center, Dresden was the junction of three great trunk routes in the German railway system: (1) Berlin-Prague-Vienna, (2) Munich-Breslau and (3) Hamburg-Leipzig. As a key center in the dense Berlin Leipzig railway complex, Dresden was connected to both cities by two main lines. The density, volume and importance of the Dresdon--Saxony railway system within the German geography and economy is seen in the facts that in 1939 Saxony was seventh in the area among major German states, ranked seventh in its railway milage, but ranked third in the total tonnage carried by rail." As far as civilians killed it was not at the top of the list, Hamburg has that distinction with 41,800 killed, Dresden had only 25,000. Another area to look at is that after WW1 Germany had suffered little damage to the country itself. By 1945, the attempt on Hitlers life had already taken place and there were rumors of Germany trying to sue for peace. Roosevelt and Churchill had decided early on the Germany would not be able to declare war and then sue for peace without having thier homeland also ravaged by war. It was hoped that after German civilians witnessed firsthand what was being done to other countries they would be less likely to support another war. Now, by no means do I like the idea of civilians dying but dont point to Dresden as some kind of mass murder plot on German civilians.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

To all Germans posting to this board:
I apologize for the remarks made by my countryman, Steve. It is only because the USA has never had any of its cities firebombed or attacked by 1,000-plane raids that we have people who can talk so glibly about the deaths of 25,000 civilians. There are only a few times when I'm embarassed to be an American--this is one of them.
btw, Steve: By this time of the war, Germany had almost no locomotives and hardly any rolling stock remaining. Discussion of Germany's "railway system" in 1945 is academic at best.

Well, how would Steve feel if a muslim extremist refers to the WTC as a legitimate target to break the resistance of the Americans? The WTC was obviously a "great trunk route" in the American economic system and whats "only" 5000 deads against Hamburg or Dresden, right?

Don't get me wrong. I am against all violence, military or not, that targets civilians. This includes the Dresden and New York tragedy.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Hi Knight and Timo: Knight; at no point in my last post did I say that 25,000 dead was okay. I said that it was less than Hamburg casualties so please dont appologize for me, I made no insensitive or derogatory remarks about Germans or Germany, please read the post again. Timo, the WTC bombing was not done as an act of war or during a war. Guys, you both apparently think I am condoning the bombing of Dresden and its casualties of 25,000 dead which I am not. Yes, on Feb 14 the RAF BC hit Dresden with 772 planes, yes for some reason the city area was their target, HE bombs on target 1477.7 tons, Incediary bombs on target 1181.6 tons, total tonnage 2659.3 tons, that is alot for one city but it wasnt near what some other German cities suffered. Knight: Dresden was bombed 8 times during the war, only 1 raid even came close to 1,000 planes and that was the Feb 2 raid of 772 planes by the RAF BC. Dont use 1,000 plane raids as a standard bombing practice for Dresden or any other city. If you have done any research you will find that Dresden was a target that would have to be hit eventually. "Dresden was, in 1945, known to contain at least 110 factories and industrial enterprises that were legitimate military targets, and were reported to have employed 50,000 workers in arms plants alone. Among these were dispersed aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabric Goye and Co.); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); the great Zeiss Ikon A.G., Germany most important optical goods manufacturer; and, among others, factories engaged in the production of electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel A. G.), gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke), and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). "Specific military installations in Dresden in Feb 1945 included barracks and hutted camps and at least one munitions storage depot." "Dresden was protected by anitaircraft defenses, antiaircraft guns and searchlights, in anticipation od Allied air raids against the city. The Dresden air defenses were under the Combined Dresden (Corps Area IV) and Berlin (Corps Area III) Luftwaffe Administration Commands)". Also, Germanys railway system was far from being destroyed. I have posted enough here that anybody will tell you that I would be the last one to offend any race no matter what. I have stated some facts that all, no more no less, so please dont try to paint me as someone who supports the bombing of civilians.

[ 27 July 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Steve ]

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

A tricky thing to say. it would justify a second attack on an American target as Bush declared war against terrorism.

But anyway, we misunderstood what you said. Sorry for that. Its clear now.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Hi Timo: It would justify a second attack considering Bush's statement, but the original attack was not done as an act of war or during a war. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

Steve: we're talking February, 1945!
The war was practically over. The existence of factories at this point is academic, as Germany lacked the raw materials and fuel to produce anything. Further, Zeiss may have made a few binoculars in '45, but, who was left to use them?
The Germans are always (still) held to account for the crimes of the Nazi Party, but the British and Americans are extremely reluctant to step up to the plate and admit where they were wrong.
File this under, "History is written by the Winners." Instead, we bend over backwards to establish this mythological history of the war. The story of millions of Japanese civilians ready to kill themselves in kamakaze attacks against invading American troops--is a MYTH. A fabrication with no basis AT ALL in reality, created to justify the atomic attacks and the fire bombing of Japanese cities.
Another Myth is the success of the Allied Strategic Bombing initiative. It wasn't successful. German military production peaked in September, 1944--well after we started pulverizing their industrial centers. Strategic bombing was a complete failure: it wasn't until we captured German raw materials (primarily oil) that industrial production ground to a halt.
Further, Allied planes were very specific about what factories to hit and what not to hit.
German Vacuum was a subsidiary of General Electric, and so, their factories were spared. General Analine and Film (GAF e.g. Viewmasters) was a subsidiary of I. G. Farben, so, their factories were avoided. I'm researching a collection of photography right now: about 500 negatives from a construction battalion of the Army Air Corps, from Normandy until end of war.
500 pieces of 4x5 sheet film--and not ONE is made by Kodak. It's all AGFA. Fancy that. How do you suppose the U.S. Army was getting AGFA filmstock in 1944?
It's fine to talk about tanks and planes and all that; but, when you get talking about multi-national corporations and the Big Money behind the war machines, that's when things get really ugly.
Charles Higham's "Trading with the Enemy" is a good place to start. Recently republished under the Barnes & Noble logo.

I suggest you go to something like www.dresden.de or write the German toruist board for more information. There are some so-called facts broadcasted here that are quite incorrect, and I'm not going to even bother arguing my points. If Dresden was a prime military juncture as had been claimed(which it was not), why wasn't there chief flak defences for the city as well as at least one night fighter flügplatz close to the area ? No one can answer this because the city was one of a place of culture. 25,000 lost souls is quite a bit too low. More apt to believe upwards of 100,000 plus as there were many refugees retreating from the revenge of the Soviets. The twin bombings of Dresden and the strafing of innocent civilians along arterial roads was one to upset the already depressing moral of the population of eastern Germany.....Harris with the agreement of the US heavy bomber commanders were to perform a so called coup de ......eliminate the storng will of the Germans; well it did nothing short of making them more resolute.

E

And this is what makes the Sept 11 attack wrong. Had it been carried out during a declard war, then the WTC would be a legimate target to damage the enemies economic inferstruture. In just the same way that bombing factories or the sinking of Merchant ships in WW2 was an acceptable form of war.
I think the problem many have with Dresden is timing. Germany was almost on its knees, and though a an other time it mayhave been a legitimate target, what purpose did it serve to flaten the city at this tage of the war.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Knight: You make it sound like the Wermacht was rolling over and playing dead. The factories, regardless of the state of the German army were still producing items for war. Also, precision bombing was not that good that they could miss entire factories when they wanted to just because there was American interest in the plant. As far as the Strategic Bombing being ineffective, I suggest you talk to Allied ground troops that will tell you otherwise. Also if you think a US invasion of Japan would have been better than the A-bombs you had better consider this, Allied estimates are over one million dead and wounded, thats just for the Allies and doesnt include Japanese casualties. Ask any Marine or soldier if those are acceptable odds. Hi Erich: I dont know why there wasnt a squadron of night fighters over Dresden, maybe they had been pulled back to defend Berlin, I dont know. Total tonnage dropped on Dresden was 7100.5 tons with 25,000 dead while Hamburg was hit by 39687.6 tons and the amount of casualties announced by Berlin was 41,000 dead. Now, considering the vast difference in tonnage, how would Dresden casualty l