One detail to add, one point to contradict:

1. Dresden was indeed a political decision. Harris' right-hand, Sir John Saundby, confirmed that "This city was not even on our target list."

2. You mentioned several times this war to be "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." NOT! This motto expresses MODERATION in revenge - inflict on an attacker the same damage that he has caused, not more! WWII, this was "A head for an eye and a jaw for a tooth.", club law.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

And war itself is a political decision.

Compared to what Nazi Germany inflicted on the world, the Allied bomber offensive was distinctly moderate.

First of all, compared to what Nazi Germany inflicted on England, the Allied bombing payed superabundantly.

Secondly, the killed civilians in the cities were not the ones to inflict anything on the world.

Thirdly, if you call this "distinctly moderate", you imply that more bombs on civilian targets would have been more adequate, which I already am obliged to find DISGUSTING.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

question !

Where is this thread going to go between the two of you ?

I'd sure hate to see a mud-slinging match started up. This thread and ones like this concerning Dresden have brought up some pretty intense feelings in past (not just on these ww2 forums) and it could easily get out of hand

Warnung !

Not to disrupt the thread but, I wanna take this time out to congratulate Erich on his awarding of the Order of the Rumanian Star Knights Cross.

Good going bud!!!!!!!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Only 987 to go as of now, to get your Hero of the Soviet Union.

[ 25. October 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

How immature.

This degenerates the board to a ,merely "Who-makes-the-most-posts"-peeing constest.

This isn't meant in any case aggressive or to belittle or downplay Erich's (or any other's) posts...it's just about this childish "Oops, I'm X posts away from an "award"-let's post a lot of zero relevant rubbish."

Quality beats quantity, and this board isn't an exception.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Hi,
Fact is by the time of Dresden, the Nazis were in no position to complain about what the Allies were dishing out. How big a military target were Guernica, Clydebank, Rotterdam, Warsaw etc?
I don't mind honest debate, but get a bit sick of the revisionist mentality that keeps trying to paint the Germans as victims!
Regards,
Gordon

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

Now see someone who did not get the point at all...

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

oh, i got the point of the other posts all right. did your last actually have one, then?
Gordon

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

Thank you Andy, and I did it as I get these as well. Nothing wrong with it and nothing wrong with giving someone due credit. That is something I fully believe in. Here people get recognized for achievements. So what if they are not actual awards?

You and I have not had a pissing contest for quite awhile. Is your intent on starting another?

Bis Bald

[ 26. October 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Erich, it is not my intention to give offence, nor are my posts intended as personal attacks. It is my great hope that this discussion can be continued with all due civility.

Frankly, so what? The ‘moderation in revenge’ that you speak of has no place in a total war.

Quote:

Secondly, the killed civilians in the cities were not the ones to inflict anything on the world.

The Second World War was a fight of regimes in which battle extended to all arenas of national life – civilians are an intrinsic part of that battle.

I am not callous towards the civilian casualties (or military human losses, for that matter) caused by these offensives – I fully agree with those that say that the death and destruction caused by war is horrific and tragic. But I also recognise that this destruction is unfortunately unavoidable when one is discussing a war of this nature.

Quote:

Thirdly, if you call this "distinctly moderate", you imply that more bombs on civilian targets would have been more adequate, which I already am obliged to find DISGUSTING.

No, by saying ‘distinctly moderate’, I state that more bombs would be less moderate, and specifically in comparison with the outrages that Nazism committed. My statement says nothing about adequacy, nor does it support attacks on civilians.

As for adequacy - as far as I can see, Allied bombing was adequate and served its purpose in shortening the war.

Your outrage is misplaced.

I'm sorry if I mistook your words, however this your statement I really do NOT understand. :?

As for adequacy, please give me a reason why the bombing down Dresden eventually shortened the war.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Really? So please explain what the fact that "the Nazis were in no position to complain about what the Allies were dishing out" has to do with the question what the users of this forum think about it.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Sorry about any misunderstanding, that section on adequacy refers to the Allied strategic bomber offensive as a whole, not specifically the raid on Dresden.

Really? So please explain what the fact that "the Nazis were in no position to complain about what the Allies were dishing out" has to do with the question what the users of this forum think about it. </font>[/quote]

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

Really? So please explain what the fact that "the Nazis were in no position to complain about what the Allies were dishing out" has to do with the question what the users of this forum think about it. </font>[/quote]I wasn't aware that I had to explain every posting, to you or anyone else.
And as for what the users of this forum think...erm, that includes myself actually. If you don't like people's opinions, don't ask for 'em mate!
Gordon

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

How immature.

This degenerates the board to a ,merely "Who-makes-the-most-posts"-peeing constest.

This isn't meant in any case aggressive or to belittle or downplay Erich's (or any other's) posts...it's just about this childish "Oops, I'm X posts away from an "award"-let's post a lot of zero relevant rubbish."

Quality beats quantity, and this board isn't an exception.

Cheers, </font>[/quote]Congratulations Andy, you are only about 350 posts away from 1,000!! Sehr Kuhl!!!

But seriously, I agree with on this point, and I'm not trying to start a contest here, pissing or otherwise.

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All your WWII Forums are belong to us!!

seems like we need to write each other some private messages eh gentlemen ? I don't want to be a hard block of cheese on a cold winters day but get back on TOPIC NOW ! Remember "the bombing of Dresden "?

The_Historian:

Of course it is not my intention to insult or attack new members. The point why I was annoyeed about your statement is that it somewhat implies that you find this kind of revisionist mentality in here, which is not the case. Therefore your posting can be considered an insult for the users of this forum.

If your posting was not meant this way, I apologize.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

I've posted this before, but the reason is quite simple.

Dresden contained a lot of relatively high-tech industry. This includes numerous small firms located in the city centre producing components for radar and radio equipment, as well as the large Zeiss-Ikon company manufacturing sights and field-glasses (employing some 16,000 people!). Other production taking place in the city included Junkers aircraft engines, cockpits for Messerchmitt fighters, anti-aircraft artillery fuses, guidance systems, turbines, communications equipment and gas masks. According to German records from 1944, no less than 127 products for the war effort originated in Dresden, the sixth largest figure of all of Germany cities.

I'll leave the part about how the lack of such items would shorten the war as an exercise to the reader.

Dresden having no military production or value is a horribly bogus representation of things (and the above completely leaves out the large garrison force and communications aspect). If Dresden for some reason is not a valid target, well, then the allies couldn't have found a valid target in the entire Reich to save their lives.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"