You're right, Andy. It was a town, and a large one. It must be hit! Unfortunately it was too badly hit... and many people died.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Irving certainly misconstrued documents, but in 1963 I don't think he had sufficient technological expertise to 'doctor' official photographs. Remarkably, that is one thing which he was not accused of at his High Court hearing.

The point was, Irving was trying to make a 'war-crime' case of Dresden, but even he had to admit - the railways were hit.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Seems you never can use enough winks.

Yeah, railroads were hit. And factories. The entire fu**ing town was hit!

What is a more strategic target: A railroad or the baker who bakes bread for the Wehrmacht, the grain field where the wheat is growing to feed the Wehrmacht, the forrest where the firing wood is made for something helping somehow the Wehrmacht, or a German Infantry division?

The bomber command firebombed the bakers, shomakers, railroads, factory workers, but not the Infantry Divisions. They don't bomb the forrests and grain fields. They bombed the cities.

The USAF bombed somehow the factories and railroads and cities and shoot the farmers on their fields, aside to Japan where they just bombed the Japs, the more the better.

What's so awfully bad in saying it like it is? Reality is: The Allies had an understandable desire to win the war, and I say: At all costs and suffering whatsoever. If the costs and suffering is on the enemy's side, the better.

I don't believe for a second that ride on the high moral horse saying: "Oh, wait this might be too cruel to the enemy, don't do it, let's better surrender to Hitler".

To me, this is crap.

Cheers,

[ 31. October 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

I'm going to get chastized for this I know........

The raid on Dresden was a terror bombing and nothing more. Allied reconaissance had shown for weeks the hordes of civilans moving through the city and out it's many road systems to the west in escape of the Soviet forces. In 1945 all heavy industry had moved out to other areas to the south so there was nothing there to bomb and the railways were used to transport the German populace from Ost Preussia west and south.
The US 8th AF was ordered to bomb on top of the RAF raid and then the fighter escorts of P-51's was to "kill" anything that moved whether by wheels or two feet. Sinister as it sounds, but it was the truth. Interviews with pilots of the 357th fg confirm this........

Ich Steige aus !

~E

A small correction ; Bomber Command was of course used against infantry divisions in Normandy.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Terror bombing? Yes. A bloody massacre? Of course! Strategic target? Yes! Justified? That's much more difficult and can be subjected to discussions like the last year...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Would you mind pointing me to a source for these interviews, or information on the 357th's activities in this period?

According to what I have read, the alledged P-51 attacks on Dresden were conducted by aircraft of the 20th Fighter Group, and moreover such accounts have been discredited, so I would be interested to read about this unit and these interviews for myself.

what reference claims show they were discredited... ?

I was not speaking just of the 357th friend. In the surrounding areas and beyond to the east for 5 days strafing attacks continued. My relatives felt the brunt of these while in the Pfalz. Continued harassment of RAF Spits came also into play to the north.

Let's ask it in this way: What effect did the bombing of Dresden have, despite the annihilation of a big city and the death of a 5-6 digit number of people, almost all undefended civilians?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Are you a nacht Uhu ? up late eh ?

have you gone back through the past 5 pages to see where the thread was taking us ? I shall not repeat again my thoughts except that I interviewed two suriving 357th fg vets who are now high ranking retired members of the group. Asking both of them as they were sitting at a table at a conference about this mission they both hesitated and one told me to basically FOff......."war is hell son"

enough said Are we going to read in any fighter group history that the pilots were given orders to shoot up civilian horse and motor stock ? Of course not ! I wouldn't expect it. In the 20th fg history it mentions one German MT shot up and then engagement of three Me 262's from KG 54 or 51

Ich Steige aus !

As you see... However my question was adressed mainly to those who defend the Dresden air raid.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

I think that novelist Kurt Vonnegut ( a POW in Dresden at the time of the raids ) was an eyewitness of daylight strafing atacks by US fighter aircraft.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Correct. Question is how happy Harris was about using "his" Bomber Command for that purpose?

As for strafing civilians (is this a war crime, btw?):

"It was the first time I ever strafed troops, and I was surprised at how quick and easy it was to take out an entire battalion. Enemy troops are fair game: A driver in a jeep - zap him. A soldier running through the snow - zap him. But we weren't always scrupulous about our target.

Atrocities were committed by both sides. That fall our fighter group received orders from the Eighth Air Force to stage a maximum effort. Our seventy-five Mustangs were assigned an area of fifty miles by fifty miles inside Germany and ordered to strafe anything that moved. The objective was to demoralize the German population. Noboby asked our opinion about whether we were actually demoralizing the survivors or maybe enraging them to stage their own maximum effort in behalf of the Nazi war effort.

We weren't asked how we felt zapping people. It was a miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time and did it. If it occurred to anyone to refuse to participate (nobody refused, I recall) that person would have probably been court-martialed. I remember sitting next to Bochkay at a briefing and whispered to him: 'If we're gonna do things like this, we sure as hell better make sure we're on the winning side.' That's still my view."

Yeager, C. & Janos, L.: "Yeager - An Autobiography", 1985, pp. 62-63

__________________
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

It would seem that Harris was about as 'happy' being ordered to use Bomber Command in Normandy as he was later at being ordered to send Bomber Command on what he considered an overly-long-penetration raid to Dresden. In both cases, he was ordered to do it - and he did it.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Shortening the war and teaching the Germans a solid lesson.

Cheers,

__________________
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Perhaps you would care to comment on my list of industrial targets present in Dresden, posted on page 5?

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

There were also other occasions of course. Just to liven up the thread with a picture, here is a Lancaster force striking German troops near St. Vith, during the Ardennes offensive, for example.

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Teaching the Germans a lesson? Yes. Shortening the war? Not so sure. The Red Army was on its way there, bombing or nobombing. And some thousand artillery pieces were with them. I see no difference, since the Dresden war industry was not that substantial.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Industrially Dresden had moved anything of importance out by january 45. This as one city caused the movement of the Luftwaffe almost enmasse to the Ost Front on 15 January 1945.
If we consider the Meissen cermaic works to be a threat to the Allies war effort then so be it. All the bombing did was stiffen up the lips of the Germans to resiest even more, especially against the Soviet forces.

two cents for the bucket.

Perhaps you would care to comment on my list of industrial targets present in Dresden, posted on page 5? </font>[/quote]Erich had this covered already long ago. If there would have been so much important technology in Dresden, the Germans would have cared more to defend it.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

I suppose this is possible, my source for the industrial targets is the "Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen für Waffen, Munition und Gerät" (Heereswaffenamt, Berlin 1944), so slightly earlier. I would still like to see some printed source on the move of these industries, so if you can point me in the right direction I'd be grateful.

Anyway, if that is indeed the case, I suppose the Germans were also considerate enough to notify the Allies about moving the industries out of the city...?

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Found a clip from The Guardian dated February 14, to show how Dresden was viewed without the benefit of hindsight and post-war analysis.

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Triple raid on Dresden

Blows by Over 3,600 R.A.F. & U.S. 'Planes Ahead of the Red Army

Wednesday February 14, 1945

Dresden and Chemnitz, both lying in the direct path of the advancing Russian armies, and Magdeburg, about seventy miles south-west of Berlin, were the main targets for devastating blows by the R.A.F. on Tuesday night and the Eighth United States Air Force in daylight yesterday. Altogether over 3,600 'planes took part. Raid warnings broadcast by the Germans last night showed that the assault was being continued. Gorlitz reported "strong air formations between Leipzig and Dresden flying east" at 12.40 this morning.

The city of Dresden had not previously suffered a major raid and huge fires started by the R.A.F. on Tuesday night were still burning when the Americans arrived at mid-day yesterday. Fortresses and Liberators from Italy attacked oil targets and communications in Vienna, while other formations of heavy bombers pounded the Maribor railway yards in Yugoslavia for the second consecutive day.

650,000 incendiaries An Air Ministry communiqué said that the R.A.F. went to Dresden twice on Tuesday night. Both attacks were highly concentrated and large fires were left burning. Another objective was the synthetic oil plant at Bohlen, a few miles south of Leipzig. Two attacks were made on Magdeburg, and Nuremburg, Bonn, and Dortmund were also bombed. Night fighters and intruder aircraft of Bomber Command supported the bombers and attacked airfields, destroying at least two enemy aircraft in combat.

Only six bombers are missing from the force of 1,400 sent out. The great industrial town of Dresden is of immense value to the enemy as a base for the defence against Koniev's armies. In the first attack, which began soon after ten o'clock, there was cloud over the target, but around it and along our route the sky was clear. By the time the second force reached the city over three hours later the cloud had gone and crews were able to see the effect of the