The impending political realities of a post-war world made him say so. The memorandum was withdrawn on Portal's insistence and never sent to Harris - see earlier in this thread for a full discussion of this.

This was complete hypocrisy from one who, just a few weeks earlier ( pre-Dresden) , had demanded to know what was being done to 'baste the Germans in their retreat...'.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

But what made him feel this hypocrisy to be necessary? What made him see so late that his brutal attitude might have disadvantages for the after-math of the war? What, if not Dresden?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

The same sort of hypocrisy that made the Americans highlight Malmedy, but not Biscari, or the same sort that made the Russians blame Katyn on the Germans....

War is hell.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I understood this to be something that would more impress the Soviets than the Germans. Churchill certainly was cognizant of the fact that the war would end and that the western powers would face a communist threat, thereafter.

Dresden received only one main force attack by bomber Command. Cologne received 22, Berlin 24, and Essen 28.

It was one of many cities that were targeted (and had been on the 'list' for months) and the raid succeeded. Let us not minimize the responsibility that must also be shouldered by Spaatz who, in the dying days of the war escalated his area bombing campaign, seemingly in competition with Harris; or the fire-bombing exploits of Lemay's superfortresses against Japan before the atomic bomb eclipsed that event.

Area bombing was (and is) a nasty business. The bombing of cities was and still is a nasty business. But why single out Dresden for special attention? Political consideration after the fact should not interfere with historical analysis.

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If dogs don't go to heaven, I'd like to go where they go.

Alrighty then. That is a very convenient view to take when presented with documentation that does not match ones preconceived opinion.

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Then perhaps he should have been paying more attention at his work? Dresden had been a second priority target, from exactly 31 January. More from the study mentioned above:

--------------------------

15. On 23 December 1944, President Roosevelt informed Stalin that--given the Marshal’s permission General Eisenhower would be instructed to send a representative to Moscow to “discuss with you the situation in the west and its relation to the Russian front in order that information essential to our efforts may be available to all of us.”19 On 26 December Stalin stated his acceptance of President Roosevelt’s proposal.20 The officer designated to confer with Stalin was Marshal of the RAF, Sir Arthur Tedder, Deputy Supreme Commander, SHAEF, and immediately responsible to the Supreme Commander for all Allied air operations. Among the topics discussed by Stalin and Tedder at their meeting on 15 January 1945 was the employment of the Allied strategic air forces in the forthcoming combined operations. Tedder outlined to Stalin the “application of the Allied air effort with particular reference to strategic bombing of communications as represented by oil targets, railroads and waterways.”21 There was also specific discussion of the problem that would face the Russians if the Germans attempted to shift forces from the west to the east and of the necessity of preventing this possibility.22

16. Therefore, on 25 January 1945, the Joint Intelligence Sub-Committee of the British War Cabinet, which was responsible for preparing such analyses for the Allied air forces, presented to Marshal Tedder, through appropriate channels, a working paper entitled “Strategic Bombing in Relation to the Present Russian Offensive.23 The findings of this authoritative body were as follows:

The degree of success achieved by the present Russian offensive is likely to have a decisive effect on the length of the war. We consider, therefore, that the assistance which might be given to the Russians during the next few weeks by the British and American strategic bomber forces justifies an urgent review of their employment to this end.24
It is probable that the Germans will be compelled to withdraw forces, particularly panzer divisions, from the Western Front to reinforce the East . . . . To what extent air bombardment can delay the move eastwards of these or other divisions destined for the Eastern Front is . . . an operational matter. It is understood that far-reaching results have already been achieved in the West by disruptive effect of Allied air attacks on marshalling yards and communications generally. These have hitherto been aimed at assistance to the Western Front and should now be considered in relation to delaying the transfer of forces eastwards.25

For the next several days these recommendations were carefully studied and evaluated by the appropriate authorities in the Supreme Commander’s staff, particularly among those immediately responsible to him for planning and authorizing air operations. On 31 January, the decision was made by the Deputy Supreme Commander Tedder and his air staff that the second priority for the Allied strategic air forces should be the “attack of BERLIN, LEIPZIG, DRESDEN and associated cities where heavy attack will . . . hamper movement of reinforcements from other fronts.”26

[...]
19. Message, SHAEF 1659 WARX-82070, 25 December 1944. Supporting Document No. 5.
20. Message, WARX-82144 SHAEF, 26 December 1944. Supporting Document No. 6.
21. Memorandum of Conference with Marshal Stalin, 15 January 1945. Supporting Document No. 7.
22. Same item and Message 22378, U.S. Military Mission Moscow, 16 January 1945. Supporting Document No. 8.
23. J.I.C. (45) 31 (O) (Revised Final), 25 January 1945. Supporting Document No. 9.
24. Ibid.
25. Ibid.
26. Message, SHAEF SCM OUT 4025 1274A, 31 January 1945 . Supporting Document No. 11.
--------------------------

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Odd, about Saundby.

When was he interviewed by Heckmann ? Possibly age was affecting his memory, for in an interview with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in 1965, he clearly recalled not only the order of 31st January but also that the inclusion of Dresden was immediately queried by High Wycombe. Previously, Dresden had not appeared in any of the weekly priority target lists issued to Bomber Command by the Combined Strategic Targets Committee. Perhaps this is what Saundby meant ?

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

The bombing of Dresden is probably dwelled on because unlike many bombed German cities after World War Two, it was located in the Soviet part of Postwar Germany, thus they couldn't rebuild Dresden well. [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

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Squirrel Reporting, Sir/Ma'am!

(attention Friedrich: )


Hi Squirrel,

first of all a warm and nice welcome to the forum!

You made in an interesting point in this discussion, but let's not forget that

1) a lot of other heavily bombed major German towns were located in the postwar Soviet occupation zone (Leipzig, Mageburg, Stettin, Chemnitz , Rostock and of course BERLIN) and

2) the reconstruction of Dresden was a top prio prestige project for the Commies (akin: See, the Capitalists destroyed it, we rebuilt the "Venice of the Elbe River"); in fact Dresden and Berlin were rebuilt earlier and faster than most other major German towns located in the postwar U.S.-, French- and British- occupation zones, of course to the disadvantage of a several dozends of smaller German towns in the postwar Soviet occupation zone, who had been destroyed likewise or worde than Dresden, but hadn't the priority of reconstruction like the big prestige towns.

So, with all due respect, I disagree to your thesis.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

[quote]Originally posted by AndyW:

Quote:

Originally posted by Squirrel: [qb] The bombing of Dresden is probably dwelled on because unlike many bombed German cities after World War Two, it was located in the Soviet part of Postwar Germany, thus they couldn't rebuild Dresden well. [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

(attention Friedrich: )

What do you mean by that, eh?! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

not sure why I keep replying to this thread.......

for what it's worth, buy the book ?

www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p247_Lutton.html

~E~

Uuuuuuuhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm Erich, thanx for the link, I was not really aware of the background of this book...

No, this is *not* the weltanschauung I want to identify with.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

IHR = Institute for Historical Review...

You'll excuse me for not holding books recommended by the site in high esteem. It's not particularly hard to figure out the agenda of people that write the Holocaust as the "Holocaust" and the Jewish question as the "Jewish Question".

Other "fine" publications offered by the site:
- "The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses" (previous title "Debunking the Genocide Myth")
- "The Myth of the Six Million"
- "The Zionist Terror Network"
- "Forensic Examination and Engineering Report on the alleged Nazi gassing facilities at Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek"

Some leaflets offered:
- "A Look at The 'Powerful Jewish Lobby" New!
- "Liberating America from Israel" New!
- "The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both sides"

[img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[ 06. November 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Heartland ]

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Although I admire many of McKee's books ( eg : 'Caen : Anvil Of Victory ' , ' Race For The Rhine Bridges ' ) his Dresden book is now regarded as being unfortunately too influenced by the work of Irving.

I've mentioned it before on this thread, but anyone who seriously wishes to study the subject of Dresden and to be informed of the most recent analysis of the historiography surrounding the whole subject cannot afford to be without Richard Evans' book : -

http://www.versobooks.com/books/cdef...r_hitler.shtml

The book contains a complete chapter concerning Dresden and is, to say the very least, deeply thought-provoking.

[ 06. November 2003, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

thanks for the link martin, in case of the documents supplied by the Dresden historical society during the war. Much that had been archived was destroyed in the dual bombings and in fact by the first of February 1945 much of interest to the regime was being transfered out of the major cities enroute to Berlin and we do know of at least three heavy trucks that were vaporized with much useful documentation to reserachers during heavy bombing/artillery shellings. Case in point is a huge cache of documents concerning Luftwaffe activites during the summer through winter of 1944. It just isn't there .........

~E ñÆ╔

an old thread started as we have done last year....on TRF.

Dresden bombing ? and post liberation, etc.

www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33480&postdays=0&postorder=asc&hig hlight=dresden&start=0

some interesting thoughts.......

~E

Here are my comments to these quotes from this other thread: Germans invited to D-day celebration before it's more hi-jacked than it is already. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

First, those 'laughing-boys' have provided us with the free world we live in. Second, even if the deaths of innocent civilians is a tragic event, it was not tragic the death of then enemy soldiers and workers, destruction of military infaestructure and communication lines, thus reducing the enemy's war capabilities.

Correction. As stated above, to severely damage the enemy's capabilities of waging and making war by destroying logistics, industries, killing its workers, leaving them homeless, breaking their morale and making them reluctant to go on with the war.

Roughly half million Germans. But I think you're forgetting more names: Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Khárkov, Antwerp, etc.

I'd like to see it too. But there's not such a source, because that figure is completely false.

This is one of the wisest - even if harsh - remarks I've read in a long time.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Any soldiers that were in Dresden were wounded men who would never again fight. Any workers that were there (which was mostly comprised of allied POWs) were made to do things such as build VIP's bomb shelters. Also Dresden was of little military importance and so it hardly lessened the Germans war capabilities. Maybe if they had hit the railroad station or the rail lines, I could agree with you..but that is not the case.
At the time it was attacked Dresden was full of refugees fleeing from the raping/pillaging of the russians. And in some cases..russians themselves. Instead of attacking the barely important rail station, they purposly attacked the hospitals, which were clearly marked,and the centre of Dresden, where many buildings were all packed close together.

Killing permanantly out of action soldiers, allied POWs, refugees, and innocent german women and children, does not affect a nations war capabilities.

Bomber Harris should have been forced to live through half of what 100,000 people died in, in Dresden. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Leitung Panzer:

Quote:

they purposly attacked the hospitals, which were clearly marked

What-from 10,000 feet in the DARK?!

Hope I live long enough to see you prove THAT one.

Regards,
Gordon

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Regards,

Gordon
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