Sounds like a good synopsis of Mansteins' self-serving and myth-establishing memoir called "Lost Victories".

Cheers, </font>[/quote]But it is correct, isn't it? With the possible exception of Charkov.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Sounds like a good synopsis of Mansteins' self-serving and myth-establishing memoir called "Lost Victories".

I am sorry but what I had mentioned are facts, aren't they?

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Erich von Manstein - as almost all generals - was very egotistical and "Lost Victories" may portray himself as a little better than he was. But STILL. Erich von Manstein was not only the best German general, but WWII's and maybe the whole XX century, according to several things I've read and of conclusions I have made by reading what he DID. ANd what Srdo posted is the complete truth. [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Haha, guess you all wanna nail me on this huh?

"Erich von Manstein was a mastermind behind invasion of France in '40.,..."

Wrong. Hitler was the mastermind behind the Invasion of France, Manstein was a mastermind in the planning of this invasion.

But, O.K.: Of course that's nitpicking. The "a" saved you. Fact.

"...conqueror of Sevastopol..."

Fact.

"...and in charge of releaving 6th Army from Stalingrad..."

Along with other tasks, yes. Fact.

"...which was an impossible task and in spite of that performed briliantly."

Huh? Manstein himself said ("Verlorene Siege" pp.330 ff.) that releasing the 6th Army was of course not impossible. In his memoirs he blames Paulus for not being disobient and just break out against Hitler's "stand firm" order. On the other hand, he - Paulus' superior - refused to cover Paulus' disobience ("I can't give you that Order, Paulus"). Of course he doesn't mentione THAT in his book.

And what exactely in releasing the 6th Army was so "brilliantly performed"? I missed that. To me the destruction of the 6th Army was a miserable, total defeat. Not loosing more than every single man of the 6th Army PLUS a release attempt is a "brilliant success"?


"Last but not least, recapture of Kharkov was his work, another brilliant performance."

Uhm, can't comment on that, never studied it, so I take this for face value. KnightMove already mentioned that this "possible" is not true.

"OK, someone would say he was defeated at Kursk but taking in consideration all factors, NOONE could have defeated Soviets in that sector."

Can't comment on that, not my area of expertise. If _you_ (and not Manstein himself) are saying that no-one could ever win there, you're possible right, I have to trust you there.


So, in fact, we have a lot of agreement here, don't we?

Now finally we just have to agree that Manstein was a convicted war criminal, sentenced to prison, a true believer that Germany could win the war in late 1943 and that he issued orders like: "The soldier should understand the necessity of the punishment of Jewry - the carrier of the very spirit of the Bolshevik terror. This is also needed to nip in the bud all disorders that are mainly inspired by the Jews.", and asked for the watches of the killed Jews for "military purposes".

And if we all finally agree that his memoirs are self-serving, extremely selective, have huge gaps when it comes to some of his less sucessive stories, apologizing, biased, in most accounts wrong when it comes to decribing the Soviet side, and that he is outright lying (not just cloaking or not mention it, but telling real, fat lies!) to his readers on his own role and knowledge in the Holocaust and war crimes, we'll have nothing to discuss anymore.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Andy, I agree with you in your thoughts about Von Manstein's memoirs, about his war crimes and about the whole thing of 'Winterstorm' (except that I object in some little matters Which I won't mention). And the things Srdo said about Khárkov and Kursk are true.

But I absolutely disagree about the 'Sichelschnitt' planning! Hitler DID NOT plan the Ardennes offensive.

Hitler clearly saw how awful were the OKH's plans to invade France and he started thinking about other posibilities where he vaguely considered the Ardennes as a viable point for an attack. But as every plan Hitler had, it was vague, unfounded and not clear enough. It was not until Von Manstein had designed the whole plan at strategical, tactical and logistical levels that Hitler immediately accepted it and very soon started to claim the plan as his. And I am not bashing Hitler, since I have always believed that he was a good strategist after all, but lacked all the natural genious, experience and knowledge his generals and specially, Von Manstein had.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Actually what i was trying to say by Hitler being the "mastermind behind the Invasion of France" iso Manstein is that it was Hitler'smastermind decision and main idea to invade France and not Manstein's. Manstein gave his input in the "how-to-invade", Hitler made the "let's invade"-mastermind-idea, got me here?

Cheer,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

AAHHHHH!!!!!!!! [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] THAT makes everything different then!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I thought the entire war was Hitler's mastermind decision ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

About Kharkov:

Manstein's best performance (maybe the best of the entire war) was to save the southern front after Stalingrad. The Russians, partially superior 8:1, were storming ahead, to cut off the Krimean and Caucasus armies. Manstein let them come, with his "back hand" tactics, then cutting them off from supplies and smashing them one after another.

About Kharkov: Against strict Führer orders, SS-Oberstgruppenführer Paul Hausser had retreated from Kharkov in early 1943, because he would have been smashed otherwise. His 3 divisions helped Manstein stabilizing the southern front, after which he retook Kharkov, smashing more Soviet armies. Whether Manstein was the strategical mastermind for this special action also, I don't know, but it might be true.

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

AndyW:

What kind of lies? And if Manstein was so bad, why did Churchill and other influental Englishmen support him after the war?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

AndyW:

"And if we all finally agree that his memoirs are self-serving, extremely selective,..."

I don't think that we agreed about that, but nevermind On the other hand, most of memoirs are just like that-self-serving, selective and, if I can add, selfish

"..in most accounts wrong when it comes to decribing the Soviet side,..."

Can you be more specific?

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