Even though Stalingrad was an unmitigated disaster for the Germans, did the remaining Army left in Stalingrad tie up the Red Army long enough to prevent a much larger pincer movement which would have encircled the Armies in the Caucasus which would have been an even bigger catastrophe for the Germans?

I think you are deluding yourself, Stalingrad was perhaps the most crushing defeat of WW II

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

Victory?!? Just read any account in an autobiography or military analysis and look for the words 'Stalingrad - German victory', and I am positive you wont find a thing.

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'The "glorious" fight of the so-called partisans was nothing more then a mean, common murder.'
- Kurt Meyer, after his loyal comrade Heinz Schrott was killed by perfidious French partisans while wounded in a street.

Come on folks, you can't deny that Manstein would have been trapped in the Caucasus if the German Stalingrad forces had gone under quicker. The Red Army were more concerned with ensuring Paulus didn't break out and Manstein didn't break in to the encirclement at Stalingrad. If Stalingrad had gone under quicker, Manstein and Army Group South would have been trapped with no way out.

This is true. The 6th Army did tie up resources the Soviets could have used to cut off the German forces in the Caucasus and there would have been a second Stalingrad. I do not believe that this has been presented as a victory but at a great price, the Caucasus armies were extracted successfully.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Welcome aboard Highway.

I think that the forces remaning in Stalingrad did tie up significant Soviet forces at least for a short time.

Its possible that von Manstein von Lewinski would have been trapped but I believe he would have fought his way out of the trap as the Russians were stretched a bit thin as they still had a huge number of forces trying to finish the Stalingrad fight.

Their sacrifices prevented a much bigger slaughter of the German forces. Unfortunately losing many excellent units in the process. All this happened only because Hitler dallied too long on anything and because Goring couldnt supply those trapped men like he said he could.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Stalingrad a German success? Well...

Of course that bit about the Caucasus armies is perfectly true, but they would also have been withdrawn a lot quicker if Manstein had had his way and the problem wouldn't have been as severe. Basically Stalingrad was a disaster that could have been far worse, but never a success or even a draw.

I disagree with the theory that Stalingrad was the most crushing defeat in WW2. About 91.000 prisoners were taken by the Red Army and about 200.000 Germans died in the city (IIRC). Well, the Wehrmacht took 3 million Russian prisoners in a matter of weeks at the start of Barbarossa, so compare that. IMHO, Stalingrad was a sign for the Germans that they were definitely going to lose the war, although they still had a chance of a draw with the USSR until the Kursk fiasco, where they lost the initiative for ever. Germany lost their chance to win the war in 1941.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

As for losing the war in '41, if you mean simply because of attacking Russia and with the outcome we know--I agree.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Maybe Stalingrad was ingrained into the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS as a lost battle and possible road to a losing ground war, but the Luftwaffe were far from defeated. Only until the advent of the Allied escort fighters such as the P-47 and P-51 did the Luftwaffe admit that the noose was being pulled tighter around their necks. Interesting though guys, that even during the struggle of being hemmed in from all sides that the war machine of the Third Reich could still deal an effective punch to it's enemies as well as come up with some unusual inventions.....i.e. Me 163 and Me 262, etc. for examples.

E

If the gemans had pulled back and never been incircled.With the germans completely out of the causas and back at their start position back in september what would the russians with their large force do to inflict a defeat as large as stalingrad was on the germans if they were not being ordered to stand their ground and fight to the last man by Hitler.

I think it would be very interesting to see what would have happened had Manstein been able to have complete control over army group south.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

Personally, I think so much of Manstein that I believe he would have pulled off what he did at Kharkov on a much larger level and inflicted serious losses on the Soviets, while probably managing to keep the Donets basin under German control. Hitler would have (and did) demand that this be so, even though there was no realistic reason to do this.

The result? One more year of war? I don't know.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

The german generals had the abilty to win the war, if the Bavarian corpal would've let them do without interfering.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

Bavarian!!!

He wasn't even a German, he was from Austria! Same place Haider comes from... if he'd been Bavarian at least he'd have drunk beer a couple of times and drunk some sense into his head.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

He erred, he meant to say Bohemian, instead of Bavarian

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

PS, Andreas, whats the English translation for your quote by Rommel?

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I knew that! [img]smile.gif[/img]

It means (roughly translated): "as long as you're not running round with your head under your arm, everything still seems to be okay."

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Just checking. I.J.E.Rommel was a wise man

I have been wanting to ask you, have you ever visited the place Rommel lived at in Goslar? Guderian lived there for a time as well.

Also, I was wondering if it would be possible for me to ask you a favor?

What I was hoping to ask you was if you could check for me to see if Herr Menzel is still open for business. He owns a Antiquitaten und Militaria shop on Breitestrasse in Goslar. Its located near one of the old city gates. I will be in your debt if you could find out for me if he is still in business and will reimburse you for any monies spent. Please let me know--thanks--Carl.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

My dad was born in Goslar but I have no knowledge of any of this! It's a small world I suppose!

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel