Hallo Otto,

I'd like to underline that I do not approve with the possibility for people on this forum to sign their postings with 'Sieg Heil', like 'General der Infanterie Friedrich H' does. I don't know about forum regulations about this subject but I for myself do not like this one bit.

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

I would disagree. Friedrich has posted some good topics and provided us with some interesting information. I do not see how this makes him a "fanatic". I would not compare him to Yan. Friedrich has not defended the holocaust or anything similar. I do alot of research on the Waffen SS and I do support alot of what they did and what they stood for. Does that make me a NAZI? Does that make me an SS apologist? I admire how Himmler took the small contigent of the SS and turned into a profitable political army. Does that mean I agree with Himmler's views on genocide? Or that I admire Himmler himself? NO!

I think Otto provides all of the opportunity to post professional topics and replies. Friedrich has not stooped down to the level of Yan or Mitzah or whatever his name was. As a matter of fact, we call all say Friedrich has improved his conversational image since he first started. I say leave the signature. I use the German cross as my motif. It is not the swastika but Nazi nonetheless. Am I a fanatic then?

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

You bring in irrelevant arguments and you miss the point. No matter what info he contributed and no matter what his background is: 'Sieg Heil' is plain clear nazism and not 'just' a sign of nationalism.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

I agree with PzJgr. If he starts spotting Holcaust denial and other such rubbish, then i am sure most of us would be onto him in a flash. But he has not. I to admire much about the military side of the Third Reich, but that does not make me a Nazi.
As for the flag, i see no problem with a correct WW2 German flag being used. After all, no oe here objects to the Hammer and Sicke or the Confedersate flag do they.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I didn't say anything about the flag.

So 'Sieg Heil' is okay, because he is a good contributor to the forum. Great. So if I make brilliant posts here which do not in any way deny the Holocaust, then I am allowed to sign with 'Heil Hitler' or 'es lebe unser Führer'. I will kee that in mind.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Napoleon and Robespierre both yelled: "Vive la France!" They were tyranns. So, French people, do not say that anymore.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

'Sieg Heil' cannot in any way be compared to 'Vive la France'. Your 'Es lebe Deutschland' is similar to that and I did not object to that. I do object to the use of 'Sieg Heil' because it is too much related to nazism to be 'just a sign of nationalism'. The 'Sieg' that deserves blessing according to 'Sieg Heil' is the war fought by the nazis.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

My last recollection is that this forum was about the war. His signature is a part of his culture. Are we saying that we can only use items approved by the victors? Does that mean that our friend Mussolini cannot use the photo of Benito just as Friedrich would not be allowed to use that of Adolf? I understand YOUR sensitivity at the greeting but you imposing YOUR beliefs onto others is about as fanatical as what the Nazis did. Isn't it? I say let him keep the signature. You have said your two cents worth and I have added mine. Let's get on with some good WWII conversations.

[ 05 July 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Gentlemen,

I try to put as few restrictions on what people do here as possible. I understand that the phrase "Sieg Heil" may be bothersome to certain individuals, and certainly it is not a signature I would choose. However, I will not make my role here an exercise in trying to figure out what is acceptable and what is not. I simply cannot be everyones censor.

As long as someone doesn't make things difficult for others or openly break the law, I'm going to allow them the freedom to post what they wish. On certain occasions I have had to get involved in certain forum activities, but I truly hate to do so, and I will intercede only if I feel it is absolutely necessary.

My number one goal here has been to create a place where people from very different backgrounds can have intelligent and non-abusive discussion about a topic that is both extremely emotionally laden and very precarious politically. Unfortunately, WWII touched so many people in so many profound ways that this type of disagreement is inevitable, (I think that's probably why so many are interested in it), but my hope is that we can at least keep it civil.

Actually this type of thread is the reason I made this virtual "place".

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Well said Otto and I totally agree. Thank you

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Come on, everyone, simmer down a bit.
I don't wish to raise the temperature even further, my tuppence worth is to say that I'd hate to see eirther Timo or Friedrich get so upset that they boycott the forum.
( Apart from interesting comments and research, Friedrich has achieved something significant - I've had to realise that Germans can have a sense of humour ! ).

( I was typing this as Otto's reply came up )

[ 05 July 2002, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

My father gave up six years of his life to fight in WW2, so I am far from being an apologist for the Nazis, but I would totally agree with Otto and the majority of contributors to this site.

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Paul Reed
Webmaster - Battlefields of WW2- http://www.ww2battlefields.info
D Day Ancestors: The British Army in Normandy - http://www.ddayancestors.com

Perhaps some do not like my posts as I do not like some one's, but we cannot agree in everything or like everything.

Martin, thanks for your support, and NO, Germans do not have sense of humour. I have lived five years outside Germany in two countries where people is joking all the time... I think that can explain it.

[ 05 July 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Political Correctness enters the WW2N!

Darn, I thought this was my one safe-haven from such rubbish.

Timo, you should have privately sent Otto a page posting your thoughts, not bring this to public discussion. If you are mature enough to understand that there are thousands of quotes that will offend someone, maybe Jewish, Arab, Irish, Catholic, German, Canadian, etc., then you wont be so worried about what people have on their sigs. Everyone wont be happy all the time, but you will be hard pressed to find better forums then the ones here on the WW2N, so deal with it and let Friedrich have what he wants on his profile. I could care less about "Sieg heil!" or "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer" (is that how the old saying goes?) anyway, suck it up and deal with it.

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'The "glorious" fight of the so-called partisans was nothing more then a mean, common murder.'
- Kurt Meyer, after his loyal comrade Heinz Schrott was killed by perfidious French partisans while wounded in a street.

Mein Gott! I wish I came up with this reply! Job well done Gibson. No offense to any or all but this is what makes this forum
successful. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer", Hilarious.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

"No man can justly censure or condemn another because indeed no man truly knows another"

Thomas Browne.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Okay. Bye then

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

G'day

May I point out that the use of "Sieg Heil"is forbidden in many country''s. I think that the words are offending for some people and therefore not very tactfull,no matter how proude you are of your country. The use of this forum is to exchange information and help each other find it and exchange ideas. The comments of both Friedrich and Timo are both enriching this forum. I think there are limits in what you can write as a signature.

Popski

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Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Gentlemen,

Exactly.

I notoced that a few of us got riled up when Timo and Friedrich made their comments. I think this issue has been blown a little out of proportion and then it was mixed in with some personal attacks. This is absolutely not what I want to see.

For the record, I never stated that I agreed with Friedrich's signiature, I just stated that although I may have the ability to control what he writes, I don't believe I have the right to do so.

As far as I am willing to go to protect Friedrich's ability to post what he wishes, I am also willing to go just as far to protect Timo's right to raise issue with those postings. Many of us jumped all over Timo, but please guys, what he posted wasn't all that absurd.

To be fair, Timo never said that Friedrich must change his signiature. Read his first post, he writes:

This is exactly the type of comment I expect and appreciate here. Timo made no demands, nor was he rude, he simply stated his opinion. In turn I responded to Timo's comment with a policy I believe in, and I tried to describe why I have that policy. Heck I even agreed with Timo about the 'Sieg Heil' thing, but I simply don't have the ability to become a censor. I can't, I don't have the time, nor the moral authority to make such judgements.

For this Timo was ridden pretty hard by several members. Some may have though I was taking sides, (I was not), and some, (not all), proceeded to post some things that were a bit inflammatory toward Timo.

All I hope is that any comment is taken seriously and considered with respect, even if you completely disagree. And please don't try to be a little more bold because you are not face to face with someone. We are not posting messages to a computer, we are communicating with other human beings, remember this.

[ 05 July 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Otto ]

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From another post written by Timo:

"General der Infanterie Friedrich H,

You know very well that Sieg Heil refers to nazism and that its not 'okay' because its not Heil Hitler. The last we need here are people who are openly nazi creeps, so go screw yourself will you...

Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'"

This is what started it all.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Sorry Panzer

If you use only a part of that tread you are twisting words, so use them correctly by both the members. Be objective

popski

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Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Fair enough. Here are Friedrich's comments prior to Timo's comments. "What do you care about what I use for signature or not?! Is it bad to be proud of your own country?! No, it is not!!! When someone does not care for his country then he is nothing! At least you know what it means?!!! I am not saying Heil Hitler! But I would if I wanted and you did not care!!!"

No where in here do I see anything derogatory as what we see in Timo's which is why I said that is what started it all. Friedrich's comments may be strong but not derogatory. I for one respect those who defend what they do or what they say as long as it does not get personal. Timo got personal and derogatory. Friedrich just got defensive.

No apology needed but nevertheless I presented the facts from the point where I perceive them to have gone outside of professionalism.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Thanks for your support, PzJgr. I might have responded bitterly. But I want to tell you that I did not insult anybody but I was insulted. That bothered me. I just want this to go to an end, I am not going to change my signature because I do not want to do so. Everybody in this forum has the right of post whatever he thinks or have the signature or avatar he wants. Everybody have different ideas here and we are here to discuss them, but not in an offensive way. I think I have changed my attitude and not behaved vulgarly since I first joined this forum. I think that I have made a little contribution to make this forum a good one, along with others and Timo as well. So I find stupid to be fighting and behaving like spoiled kids. Wheteher I was insulted or not, by Andreas, by Timo or whoever I ask Otto to close this disgusting topic and to all the rest to burry it all.

Your friend, G. Friedrich von Hammerstein und Hartmann Jolly.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère fra