I am currently researching a PhD on the wartime performance of British and German airborne troops. I would be interested to hear what people think were the reasons for the units performance and any other related topics. Also if anyone has any info they are willing to share please contact me.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

After Crete, german airbourne operations were very limited. This does not mean that the Falshrimjager were not very active. They proved in Ortona, Monte Casino and other places that they were the toughest of opponants, it is my opinion that they were truely an elite force, something the SS mostly failed to be. British Airboune troops were active from 41 to 45 with a geat many drops all through the war, both on small and large scales. Their record can only be described as extremely sucessfull. The only large action that was less then a complete sucess was Arnhem. So, If your talking successful
as an airbourne unit, I would say the British were better. If you are talking pure fighting ability, I would say they were fairly even, perhaps with a slight edge to the Falshrimjager.

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

What should be remembered about German paras is hat they were blazing a new path. True Germany did not invent Paratroopers, but these were thge guys everyone else copied. So in one respect they had the advantage of surprise of using a new means of warfare. But they also were the first who had to deal with all the problems that come with it. And of course, the Green Devils make the clam that they were never beaten in battle.

I can't think of any Brtish operations that were close to those of Germany. For example, Eden Emael was just amazing. And on Crete, the Germans had to take the island alost by themselves. ere as in the big Brtish drops, there was the bonus of knowing regular ground troops were on there way to relieve you. The riskest one of these would have to be D-Day. If the beah heads had been drven back, the Paras would have been on their own.

Personaly, i'd rate German Airbourne troops the finest of their kind in whatever role they were ased to carry out.

O ye. Welome to the forum.Hope you have fun. I'm sure you will be able to find any inf you want on here.

[ 17 July 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Bish OBE ]

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

G'day

The German paratroopers were the elite at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war they were just soldiers put together and got the name paratrooper to give the allies a bit of a scare. It gave these soldiers also a morale boost to do their best because they were "paratroopers" The German paratroopes were the examples to which the British formed their airborne units. After Crete the attitude towards the use of paratroopers changed. Hitler didn't want an airborneraid ever to happen again because of the great loss of good fighting men and Churchill saw Crete as a great example of how to use this kind of weapon.

Popski

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Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!.. Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Monty Python's Killing Joke

Our Farschirmjägern were absolutely amazing. They achieved things so difficult. Let's talk about Norway and Crete, where the British had naval entire superiority. But our Fallschirmjägern along with our Gebirgsjägern won this two battles in bad conditions by themselves. And that was because of training and combative-spirit. They took Crete with hand guns. The British had tanks, artillery and more men. This is the major proof of how good they were. And certainly, they performed very good the rest of the war when they became regular infantry. This is what the paratrropers are, they are infantry better trained that can jump from an aeroplane and that's it. The important difference is how tough they were and surely in Cassino fought awesomely. About the British, the "Red devils" were also very, very good. I am amazed how they could resist Bittrich's attack at Arnhem bridge. Their situation was for being totally smashed. But they held and could retreat. I admire them a lot, too.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I agree the Fallschirmjager were a true elite, but Crete was handed to them on a plate by incompetent British commanders withdrawing troops from the hieghts dominating Maleme airfield. But I doubt any other force, apart from the British airborne, would have held on like the Germans in Crete in the face of such horrific losses. The British proved their tenacity at Arnhem three years after Crete.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Not only did the Fallschirmjager achieve success at Crete, but also fortress Eben Emael when Germany invaded Belgium. They also rescued Mussolini in 1943 and had a lethal reputation in all European fronts. If I had to pick the toughest paratroopers ever, it would be them. Next would be the Red Devils(British Airborne).

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

You guys need to research the battles for Sicily, Italia, especially (Cassino) which is often overlooked, and Holland in 1945. The Falschirmjagd was a deadly force .....IOn fact the Italien theater does not have much good resources anyway....sad. If I can ever get my Fallshirm freidn to get me his exploits while in North Afrika, Sicily; I'll have Otto post an article. He was one of the last fighting rear guard actions before his transfer to Normandy and his capture.

E

People often say that after Crete, German paras were grounded. That may be tre. But then afte WW2 all paras were grounded. Except for a few minor drops, like Suez in 56, all paratroopers have fought on the ground. This is a result of the lessons learned in WW2, and the advent of the helicopter. So, like their use of aibourne roops to start with, their deploying them as elite infantry was simple leading the way to what was inevatable.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I have read extensivly on the battle for Ortona in Dec 43. There the Falschrimjager (1st Div IIRC) fought the vetern, similarly elite 1st Canadian Infantry Div in some of the most intense combat of the Western Theater. After they withdrew and were rearmed, the survivors were sent into Monte Cassino, not exactly a rest area. Ortona is a facinating battle, sort of a minature Stalingrad, in fact the bttles nickname was Little Stalingrad.

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Ain't no rocket scientists in the firehall

Althoug the Fallschirmjager launched no 'major' drops (divisional level) after Crete they did perform several large drops. In 1943 they dropped on Leros and Monte Rotondo. They also rescued Mussolini alongside SS-Para elements and the last operation laucnched was the Ardennes drop during the Battle of the Bulge, Operation Strosser led by Von Der Heydte. Strosser was a nasty failure and achieved little apart from worrying the Americans. You all seem to feel that the Germans were the better troops, Im not disagreeing but consider this: the Allies, basing their ideas on German principles, were able to organise and conduct huge airborne drops. Operation Varsity is an outstanding example of how to perform an Airborne drop.

By the way never let a British Para hear you say the Germans were better... It leads to a very short life expectancy!!!

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

There were several German drops after Crete. The lack of them and the smaller size of them may not be down to Hitlers worry over losses. Although shocked at losses Hitler never stated that no more drops were to happen, they merely became of a smaller scale than Crete. This was most likely due to a lack of suitable aircraft than Hitlers worry over losses. The Ju52 was the only suitable aircraft for dropping troops and losses in them were horrific over Crete, but the damage had also been done in Holland in 1940 when hundreds of JU52's were lost. Certainly the airlift at Stalingrad suffered due to the lack of them. Some operations after Crete; Leros, Monte Rotondo, Gran Sasso and Strossser. Operation Strosser was the last drop of the war and took place during the Battle of the Bulge under the command of Von Der Heydte.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

From von der Heydte's own account, Operation Strosser in the Ardennes was a very sad shadow of past glories ... ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Too right! It was a complete shambles. He only managed to group up 120 men out of all those dropped. But it is rumoured that Der Heydte jumped with an experimental triangular parachute during this operation.

He jumped with an arm wound by the way and injured his other arm on landing I believe. Now thats bad luck!

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Yes, Erich. We had a lot of trouble for the losses of transports: Ju-52s. We lost several in 1940 and a huge ammount (250?) during Crete and by 1942 the production has stopped because all the resources were being used to build bombers. Then, the several air-lifts costed much more transport aeroplanes and that affected our war effort significatively. By example, in the Eastern front, where the distances were very big, the quick transport of wounded men could only be done by air-transports. Many men died because there were not enough of these transports by 1943...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I'd say that with the exception of a few key tactical drops, airborne forces of both sides during the war weren't that effective. They were mostly very costly in terms of men and resources, and only succeeded when they were quickly followed up by major conventional attacks. The D-Day drops were only effective because theere were so many men dropped, and this in itself became a major source of confusion for the Germans. But it was costly for the Allies. Operation Varsity was probably the most successful Allied airborne op.

Let's not forget the contribution of the airlanding elements, who provided much of the materiel backbone for the strategic ops, especially in the case of the 82nd and 101st roles in Market Garden.

And you guys should know better. The capture of Eban Emael was mainly an airlanding op, not an airborne one. So Pegasus Bridge is the obvious allied success to match that triumph.

You also need to look at the disaster in 1940, the landings at the Hague. These were a shambles and the German paras were quickly rounded up by the alert Dutch I Corps. I have very little information on this, but it is worthwhile considering that it was not just a march of total successes until Crete. Eben Emael wiped out memories of the Hague landings, but it would be nice if some of our Dutch colleagues dug anything up on this sharp little engagement.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

However, our Fallschirmjägern held the positions and behaved quite well against the Dutch.

And Eben Emaël is a thread by itself...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

A lot of Fallschirmjaeger ended up in captivity after their landings in Holland 1940. I think the fallschirm did quite well. Although many of them failed to form in bigger formations and had to fight isolated battles until relieved. Of the proposed march on The Hague to capture the royal family nothing came.

The ones who suffered were the airlanded troops. Those who were flown in by Ju52 on the airfields around The Hague. These were partly still in Dutch hands who shot most of the transports to shambles, the wrecks blocking the airstrips and the other Ju52s still coming in. Many ended up landing on the Leiden - The Hague road and even on the beach.

If interested I will look into the matter....Have a books on the matter but not so much time at the moment... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

As to Erich's remark to their battles in Holland in 1945; Their stand at Kapelsche Veer is one of the most overlooked battles on the western front. Fallschirmjager held out months on a small bridgehead on the southside of the maas(?) river. They put up a dogged resistance against Canadian and Polish forces until they finally retreated. Heavy loss of life on both sides. I saw a doc. about it on tv about a year ago with both German and Polish vets and all of them became emotional when talking about it. Without doubt it was the heaviest fighting they had been in. Am in the proces of aquiring the best documented book (Dutch) on it as far as I know.

[ 02 August 2002, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

My grandfather told me that he and his men in 9. Panzerdivision replaced the paratroopers some hours later and that they found a general (Kurt Student) with a thousand men without ammunition, exhausted and hungry, but with the position in their hands... Just because my Opa hates aeroplanes, but he would have like to be a para. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

You guys posted some interesting points here.

Has anyone got more detailed info on Holland???

Numbers captured, which units etc??

Thanks again guys and I suppose you all want a mention in the front of my book!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Is it a coincidence that it always seems to be Canadian or Polish forces that are sent to attack Fallschirmjäger?

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Maybe?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun