Matematically there were produced 1.349,5 tigers... But I cannot image half tiger...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

See, I told you that averages aere no good

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

First off, I would not suggest taking an average for any number (nor did I anywhere in here?)... averages obviously don't work with when trying to determine a real number.

And it's good to know that both Timo and Friedrich can vouch for the authenticity of third reich records...
(sorry to snap, but give me a break- how would you guys know about accuracy in records made 60 years ago??? Were you there???)
In speaking of accuracy of records, I have a first-hand account in one book from a german panzergrenadier general at Kursk who claims to have fought JSIIs there...

Let me clarify something... I'm not looking for the exact numbe of tigers produced. I started this thread to discuss the difficulties inherent in using statistics from WW2- even statistics from an author we happen to like...

Obviously, some people missed my point here...

[ 29 July 2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

No, it was Friedrich who suggested to gather as much figures as possible to calculate an average. Not you.

Oh my. I've been through tons of original records at the BA-MA in Freiburg. Believe me, production and delivery documents are reliable. Like I said before, making errors in such documents would cause a lot of problems for the one who made them. We are talking wartime records, not post war memoires or recollections by somebody who was there. Shipping forms don't lie. But thanks for questioning the expertise of an historian you don't know.

Not Kursk. It was Charkow. In his book "Grenadiere" Kurt Meyer mentions JS2's during the attack on Alexandrewka in February 1943, which is one year to early. But these are his memoires, no precise wartime documents. Just things he remembered ten years later.

Its not a matter of liking, it’s a matter of checking his sources. Believe me, if someones footnotes mention BA-MA RS numbers, it quite save.

Obviously you're not familiar with research and available sources. Nor with the ins and outs of being critical towards sources.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Now I wanted EXACT numbers?!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Actually Timo, I was talking about a completely different book on the JSIIs- "German Battle Tactics on the Russian Front, 1941-1945".

That's my whole point. If like you say, those records are 100% accurate, then why dosen't EVERYONE use those numbers? You still haven't addressed that point. And you seem to be saying that we SHOULD NOT be critical towards sources.

There are mistakes in records all the time. Most historians acknowledge this. Why should the BA-MA records be any different? Why do you think there couldn't be errors there?

Look, Timo, if this thread dosen't interest you, then don't comment. This was in inetersting discussion until you came in and basically told everyone off. Thanks!

[ 29 July 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Angry Friedl? Why? Didn't you write:
(posted 25 July 2002 05:16 PM by Friedrich)

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Hmmm. You just don't get it, do you? Those records are 100 percent correct. If they missed any Tigers its because some documents are missing. Missing records are not the same as records with errors. As to your question "why doesn't EVERYONE use those numbers". Because not everybody is as dedicated to this job as Jentz and Spielberger. Others just copy info from other books and don't care about the exact figures. Some want to snap together a book about an appealing topic and sell.

Okay, if you want this discussion to commence on a teenage level and leave out the pro's, go ahead. I like the topic but the arguments used are wrong. If you can't accept some help, so be it.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

OK, meathead...

So are the records accurate, or are some documents missing?
Try and avoid contradicting yourself. Makes you look smarter.

For the last time- Tigers were only an EXAMPLE.
So Timo, should we believe every number we read?

duh... leave out the pros... give me a break...

[ 29 July 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hmmm, I have to agree with Crazy. If the records are missing, how can numbers be "100 percent" accurate? Missing or erroneous, they are not 100 percent accurate. So admit it Timo, you also present inaccurate and contradictory data thus irrevelant.

[ 29 July 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

(Thanks, PzJgr- I was hoping it wasn't just me)

Tigers are a bad example to use form the outset, because they have already been written on alot, and because they were relatively few in number to begin with. And I have been doing some more work on this in recent days, and suprisingly many more numbers agree than I had thought would.
Maybe a better title for this thread would have been "reliability of sources" and advantages provided by hindsight. For example, American records from Normandy suggest huge numbers of Tigers and Panthers; we now know this to be inaccurate.

Here's one on the numbers thing that has really gotten me- I'm sure that the Jagdtiger was fitted on some models with an interum 88mm, while some had the intended 128mm. I haven't even been able to come up with a vague number as far as how many had which guns...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

You are welcome my friend. I was sidelining this but could not resist this last one. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Timo, mi words on your quote demonstrate that I never asked for exact numbers. I said, let's make an average (obviously from the most accurate sources) and the average will get us mathematically and logically closer to the real number. It is very simple.

You have three apples, I have four apples and Crazy has two apples. The logical and mathematically correct answer is that we have three apples each. It is not the truth, but it comes really close to it. What is wrong with today's schools?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

And I suposse that if we say that every three of four U-boats mariners were killed, like that is an average that is a wrong cypher... Please!!!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

No Fair!!!
How come Friedrich gets more apples than me?!?!

Friedrich, you mentioned the wartime records kept by these companies, and the difficulty getting at these records. Being from Germany yourself, can you tell us anything more on this issue? What have these companies released, if anything? Do any of these records ever "turn up" mysteriously anywhere (get leaked by someone)?
With the Internet drastically sppeding up the exchange of information, I would wonder how long records like that could be kept secret...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Well, you should be credited to enter into Henschel's archives first. Get into a large basement and read tons of papers 60-years-old and make your counts... Even if you can get a pass to get there it would be extremely difficult.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Isn't anybody able to actually understand my words? I said the files are correct BUT IF they missed Tigers its because documents are missing . As far as Spielberger and Jentz know, this is NOT the case and thus their figures are CORRECT.

O bugger. Why am I waisting my time on this.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Well, let me try...

So the files are correct...unless they are incorrect...

According to the possibly incomplete research of only two historians..

[ 08. May 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Smartest thing said. Why am I wasting my TIMO on this..... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 29 July 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Too bad... seems like this could have generated some more interesting discussion.
Oh well...

[ 29 July 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Would all of us shut up?! We are ruining the fun here. We are not talking about Tigers anymore...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun