Nice stuff, Kai. I'll see if Klages mentions anything about SS Ersatz Brigade Westfalen. His work is pretty good at accounting at least for the tanks themselves, so I'd guess he would at least mention Westfalen. I'll check tonight...
(Another cool thing about Klages work- since he self-publishes, he's relatively easy to get in touch with. Hence, if we happen to find anything that seems unclear or seems to be missing from Trail of the Tigers, I'm sure he can clarify!)

This actually could make an interesting study... the ad-hoc German units that were forced into battle during the last months of the war. Of course, records seem to be scarce at best, but...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Thanx CrazyD,

Just trying to find more info on the Tiger I´s:

SS-Obersturmbannführer Friedrich Holzer

http://www.dasreich.ca/holzer.html

In 1944, Holzer assumed the command of the Panzer-Ausbildungs-und Ersatz-Regiment which became Panzer Regiment "Holzer" of SS-Panzer-Brigade "Westfalen" and ended the war at this command.


This is totally a foreign ( Polish? ) site but anyway:

http://sweb.cz/freiwilligen/DOBROVOLNICI/m2.htm

SS Panzer Brigade Westfalen

SS-Obersturmbannführer Hans Stern

SS-Panzer-Aufklärer Regiment Meyer (SS-Sturmannführer Meyer)

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Ausbildungs und Ersatz Abteilung I (SS-Sturmannführer Frühauf)

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Ausbildungs und Ersatz Abteilung II (SS-Hauptsturmführer Schaarschmidt)

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Unterführer Ausbildung Abteilung (SS-Hauptsturmführer Sonne)

SS-Panzer-Ausbildungs und Ersatz Regiment Holzer

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Ausbildungs und Ersatz Abteilung I (SS-Hauptsturmführer Zimmermann)

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Ausbildungs und Ersatz Abteilung II (SS-Hauptsturmführer van Geldern)

SS-Panzer Aufklärungs Unterführer Ausbildung Abteilung (SS-Hauptsturmführer Burmeister)

Abteilung Kloskowski (SS-Haupstrumführer Kloskowski)

Abteilung Grams (SS-Haupstrumführer Grams)

Schwere Panzer Abteilung 507 (Major Fritz Schöck)

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Hmmm... that LOOKS like an Order of Battle for Westfallen... or rather, for the kampfgruppe that Westfallen was a part of?

I think one of my volumes on the SS has a bit part on Fruhauf- some photos and brief history. I'll check on that one.

I know it would be bringing this thread into a different topic area (but hey, I started it! )... but... Kai (or anyone) I'd be rather interested in anything else you can pull up on some of these late war ad-hoc heavy tank units. Interesting stuff...

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hmmm... I did some checking... and from what I can see, I don't think SS Pz. Brigade Westfalen was equipped with Tiger I tanks.
For one thing, the two sources you found (the book and the one on the net) seem to contradict each other. The book talks about the "improvised SS Ersatz Brigade Westfalen", manned mainly by training personell. However, the website seems to suggest that Pz.Brigade Westfalen may have even been around in late 1944? Dosen't seem to match up...
And more information/confusion...
from http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss...-westfalen.htm
s.Pz.Abt 507 fought using Tiger II tanks in 1945 on the western front.

Klages makes no mention of any Pz Brigade Westfalen in his data on s.Pz.Abt 507, but again, his work is very light on action history, etc., so he may well just have not mentioned which unit the 507th was fighting under.

The closest thing in Klages sounds like Tiger-Gruppe Fehrmann . Kampfgruppe established in early 45 using training tanks from Pz.Er.Abt. 500. The group was equipped with 6 Tiger Is. They fought against British forces in the area south and east of Bremen.

So apparently, Hart and Klages/skalman do not agree on their info!

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

sPzAbt. 507 was reformed in Germany in Feb. 1944. It was understrenght and its 1st kp. had no tanks. The 3rd kp. fought with/under SS-Panzerbrigade 'Westfalen'. 507's 2nd kp. saw action with SS-Regiment Holzer. I get exactly what Timo was trying to say. The production records are accurate but it is POSSIBLE some could have been misplaced or overlooked. The fault is not that the records are wrong but incomplete research. How do you define produced? You distinguish between tanks sent to combat Units and those for training. why? How do you then count the Tiger II's found completed at the Henschel factory but not issued because it was overun?. I have only seen extracts of the Klage booklet and it seems to mirror exactly the losses and causes of same from Schneiders TIC vol. I/II. Schneider gives an issue total of 496 Tiger II and Jentz gives 473. It seems Schneider has double counted an issue of 13 to SS 501 in March that was taken back and given to Heer 506. The other 10 'disputed' Tigers were Waffenarnt/Ersatzheer and '500' issued Tigers. For the Tiger I Schneider gives a total of 1353 and Jentz 1408. I have not gone through the issued Units yet but Schneider stops counting in August 1944 and Jentz continues to Feb 1945. Most of this 'extra' total must be rebuilt Tiger I's

That was exactly my point. For whatever reason, many of the "statistics" we use studying WW2 can easily be called into question.
The thing Timo seemed to miss was that I was only using Tiger tank production as an example of the possible fallacy of all these "numbers". Tiger tanks were/are one of the most notorius and well-studied aspects of WW2- and yet after all these years, all these people with access- there is still dispute as to the exact number produced.

Further proving my point... Klages, who uses both sources... gives 494 as the total issue for Tiger IIs.

I'm guessing you mean February 1945? After fighting on the eastern front March 1944-February 1945, s.Pz.Abt 507 returned to Germany where the 2. and 3. companies were refitted with Tiger IIs (and interestingly, again according to Klages (damn I need more sources...)- the 2. company was also issued 3 Jagdpanthers...). In total, the unit was issued 21 Tiger IIs- 15 new issue and 6 transferred in. 3 were combat losses in March 45. In April 45, the unit transferred out 1 Tiger II (?) and lost it's remaining 17 vehicles. Their last Tiger II was abandoned near Osterode, Germany .
On the 1 Tiger II transferred out- again, Klages mainly focuses on the numbers. He does make one note that could apply- "1 Tiger II is abandoned but later used by 3. company s.Pz.Abt 510." I guess this could be the transferred out Tiger II- although not voluntarily or intentionally transferred out, that was the basic result...

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

More on s.Pz.Abt 507...

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm

The 507th was formed on 23 September 1943, from personnel taken from I Abt./Pz.Rgt. 4 of 13th Pz. Div.. It was organized in the usual fashion: a battalion HQ staff company, 3 tank companies, and a workshop company, plus supply and support detachments, and equipped with 45 Tigers between 23 December 1943 and 25 February 1943. Transferred to the Eastern Front in March 1944, the 507th received seven replacement Tigers before the end of the month and a further 12 in April, eight in July, six in August, ten in November and one final tiger in December 1944. Overstrenght at 55, the 507th met the Russian winter offensive on the Tarnapol river above Vitebk and around Narev, on 14 January 1945, and by 1 February 1945 had only seven tigers left, none of which operational.

On 6 February 1945, the 507th was ordered to return to Senneläger, to refit with the Tiger II. The unit received 21 Tiger II Ausf Bs: four on 9 March 1945, 11 on 22 March 1945, and the last six on 31 March. The front came to the sPzAbt 507, deployed in the defense of the local area.

And more on the numbers game...
"Schneider gives an issue total of 496 Tiger II and Jentz gives 473."
FPrado's armor site- one of the best I've seen for Tiger info- gives 3 prototypes and 489 production units for the Tiger II. FPrado does not appear to use Schneider in his sources, but does use Jentz and quite a few others that I recognize...
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Sh*t... where are Crazy's manners...

Welcome to the forums, m kenny! Hope to see more posting- more Tiger enthusiasts are always a good thing!!

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

panzerkampfwagen 4 ausf.g: 1687
panzerbefehlswagen5"panther"ausf.a:329
panzerkampfwagen"tiger":1355
panzerkampfwagen6 "tiger2"/"königstiger" ausf.b:489

info:the german tankschool/guide;panzer
museum munster
by:Panzerfreak

Lucky Panzerfreak... now that's a museum I'd like to visit!

But the numbers provided by the PanzerMuseum... yet more difference! Just looking at the sources cited recently-
on Tiger II production:
Jentz- 473
Schneider - 496
Klages- 494
and PanzerMuseum- 489

We know there were less than 500 produced. We know where and when they were produced. Supposedly, the German companies kept good records (I've been told that it is absolutley impossible to even consider that the germans falsified any records at all )

So why is it that no two sources seem to agree on what should be a simple number?

(rhetorical question... really just food for thought...)

[ 28. May 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.