The intention for the Knights Cross with Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds was for it to be awarded to 12 officers after the war-(which i'm sure we all know)-so who do you think would be the other 11 to join Rudel?

I don't mean who Hitler wouldv'e awarded it to, but who you who was worty of it-my list goes as:-(in no particular order)-

1)Erich Hartmann
2)Gunter Viezenz
3)Adolf Galland
4)Walter Nowotny (Posthumous)
5)Werner Molders (Posthumous)
6)Hans Joachim Marseilles (Posthumous)
7)Otto Kretschmer
8)Erich Topp
9)Reinhard Suhren
10)Leon Degrelle
11)Hajo Hermann

Now your turn...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

I must admit i did not konw that. I would have to say Wittmann. Though i have no idea who i would remove from your list for him to get one.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Most assuredly the men picked would have been only from a list of 27 men, as there were only 27 to have RK, Oaks, Swords and DIAMONDS. One would have to be a Diamonds recipient in ordewr to be considered.

So that means men like Wolfgang Luth and Erwin Rommel would be included on the list of possible recipients.

Will get a list from the RKT site sometime and post the name here.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

can you guys explain this a bit more.

Panzerknacker, you say these awards were meant to be issued after the wa. Was this a bit of wishful thinking on the part of the Germans. At the time it was awarded, they were hardly likely to win. And how come Rudel got one early.
I simply assumed it was just instigated because those who already had the rest of the RK awards were still doing valiant service, and that Rudel was fortnate in that he got his before things were over.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I'm pretty sure Rommel's popularity would have earned him the award. That is, if he had not tried to kill Hitler in the meantime.

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"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

Bish-this award had been designed after the inception of the Grand Cross. Hitker thought that the 12 most deserving officers would be awarded these.
Rudel was given his award early for several reasons:-
1) Hitler didn't want Rudel to risk flying anymore and this award was sort of a bribe.
2) Boost morale to get troops to do extraordinary things.
3)Rudel's outstanding combat service warranted more than the RK-ESB, and Hitler gave him the award.

So the Germans proposed this award in the belief tehy would eb awarded on Victory Day Celebrations...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

And the only candidates would be the Diamonds recipients as there were only 27.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I never realised there was only 27 Diamonds awarded. Would i be right in thinking most of these went to the airforce.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Rüdel from SG 2
Schnaufer from NJG 4
Lent from NJG 3
7 day fighter pilots including Gollob, Galland, Mölders, Marseille, Hermann Graf, W. Nowotny, E. Hartmann.....

E

Thats not bad. 10 out of 27.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

These 27 men are the candidates:

General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck
Korvettenkapitän Albrecht Brandi
SS-Obergruppenführer Joseph Dietrich
Generalleutnant Adolf Galland
SS-Obergruppenführer Herbert Otto Gille
Major Gordon McGollob
Oberst Hermann Graf
Hauptmann Erich Hartmann
General der Panzertruppen Hans Hube
Generalfeldmarschall Albert Keßelring
Oberst Helmuth Lent
Korvettenkapitän Wolfgang Lüth
General der Panzertruppen Hasso von Manteuffel
Hauptmann Hans-Joachim Marseille
Generalleutnant Dr. Karl Mauss
Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model
Oberst Werner Mölders
Major Walter Nowótny
General der Fallschirmtruppen Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke
Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel
General der Panzertruppen Dietrich von Saucken
Major Wolfgang Schnaufer
Generalfeldmarschall Ferdinand Schörner
Oberst Adelbert Schulz
Oberst Hyazinth Graf von Strachwitz
Generalleutnant Theodor Tolsdorf

I would think of the next 11:
Rommel, Hartmann, Keßelring, Model, Dietrich, Mölders, Nowótny, Galland, Lüth, Graf and McGollob.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Thank you Freidrich.

I'm curious. On what grounds were these awards given out. I notice that while a number of the holders are front line soldiers, others are from the higher ranks who would never have fired a shot. Yet in comparison,i think the VC was not recieved by anyone above the rank of Capt.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Bish. It is quite simple. You know that you win the Iron Cross for achieving something beyond the line of duty, whichever your rank or branch is. When you repeteadly achieved that you won the Iron Cross over and over again. Except that it had different levels. Iron Cross II Class, Iron Cross I Class, Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, Knight's Cross if the Iron Cross with Oakleaves, Knight's Cross if the Iron Cross with Oakleaves and Swords, Knight's Cross if the Iron Cross with Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds and Knight's Cross if the Iron Cross with golden oakleaves, swords and diamonds. So, Rudel won the iron Cross seven times!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

O ye, i undestand that. What i am getting at is that the same awar is given to those in the fring line as to those who sit behind the desk. Among soldies, this can lead to a feeling that the award is being deminished.

So, while storming an enemy gun position, or single handaly stopping an entire armoured Div is beyond the call of duty, ho can this apply to someone who issues orders from behind a desk. I mean, this was Germanys equavlant to the VC or CMH, but it was given to desk jocks.

I know how i would feel. I feel pissed off enough that my campaign medals are the same as those given to REMFs who never left camp. To have such an award as the KC and those that followed it given out like his, to me anyway, degrads what the actual fighting troops did to earn it.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Bish, I completely disagree with you!!!

I ist much more harder and difficult and much, much, more important to lead 200.000 men plus to victory than shooting down 200 aeroplanes. I am not saying that it is not less worth it. But you should know that there are many different jobs in an army and that doing the job excellently is as worth it in the first line of action or behind a desk. What is a NCO officer with his pistol in hand if he doesn't have a general behind a desk that has decided where to attack and not let his men's work be in vain.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Erich and Friedrich beat me to the punch for you Bish.

Also, I have to agree on that some of the RKTs given out were not deserved by their recipients. Some were more "politically driven" than the vast majority were.

Ill get to the Freikorps stuff on the morrow.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Well, while the General has to carry the can when things go wrong, all he is really risking is his job. While the front line soldier is risking his life.I personally think there should be a seperate award.

Carl, am i correct in thinking the VC and CMH are only given to fighting troops, or have they been issued to guys out of the firing line.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

The vast majority were issued to frontline soldiers, (the ones who actually duked it out toe-to-toe, with the enemy) but a few were issued to men behind the lines BUT, had had important parts in winning a crucial battle i.e. making a few right decisions which helped in winning a battle. And still a few others were given for political reasons. One of the most famous "political Knights Cross awardees", was none other than Admiral Yamamoto himself. There were a few given for a forigner being and showing Loyalty to the Third Reich, as was the reason it was presented to Yamamoto.

[ 30 July 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck
SS-Obergruppenführer Joseph Dietrich
Generalleutnant Adolf Galland
Hauptmann Erich Hartmann
Generalfeldmarschall Albert Keßelring
General der Panzertruppen Hasso von Manteuffel
Generalfeldmarschall Walter Model
General der Fallschirmtruppen Hermann-Bernhard Ramcke
Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel

The rest would have gone to luftwaffe pilots but I do not know too many on this list.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Would you say Goring Knights Croos was political. I assume it was awarded for Poland, as it as presented on 30 Sept 39.

What i find odd about the Third Reich is that while there were alot of people who wore medals but had not really done anything, i am sure we have all heard of the golden pheasants, the guy at the top did not indulge in this. When you look at many mlitary world leaders, they are covered in medals. Yet Hitler only wears his Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class and his wound badge. All which he rightly deserved. So, whatever else we may think of him, he seems to have been modest and understated.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I agree on all counts. Goring had to be the top dog so Hitler had to confort him by giving him new titles (Reichsmarshal) and resurrected medals (Grand Cross).

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Yes, Hitler was a very humble man and that is one of the things I admire of the man. And yes, he really deserved those medals. (He is like Otto, just likes to give them away...)

Bish, just this: a NCO or a single soldier cannot win a war, a general can. But without men, a ganeral cannot do anything. And without officers, men cannot do anything. That is why they all exist for.

No, Görings award was not completely for political merit. He was awarded it after the fall of France. We must remember that Göring did an awesome job as architecht of the Luftwaffe and then the Luftwaffe contributed 50% in the defeat of Poland and France. Obviously, the commander of the Luftwaffe, which by the way was the 2nd most powerful man of the Reich had to have a very special military award and rank. I don't think that he would have been promoted beyond field marshal and awarded the Großkreuz if France would not have fallen...

And guys, don't you just love how enormously BEAUTIFUL the bloody Großkreuz looks?