This has been inspired my thinking about the discussion between Bish and Friedrich. It may seem trivial, but I'm interested....

....how many Generals picked up a gun and shot someone in WWII ?

The famous incident of Urquhart drawing his Inglis Browning and shooting the German soldier in Zwarteweg, Arnhem immediately comes to mind. Anyone think of any other Generals-in-action ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I think James M. gavin - 82nd AIrborne shot his rifle in 'anger'...In Normandy and/or Holland...I have his book ON TO BERLIN in which it is described but it is in storage now...But then, most airborne generals probably did...

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Just checked my copy.
Gavin is in close combat immediately after dropping near Groesbeek. He doesn't actually fire his Garand, but as he's almost face-to-face with the enemy I think it counts !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

In Russia, Sepp Dietrich was having lunch with some of his staff in a house when the alarm when off of a Russian attack and at that time, a T-34 crashed right into the house they were in. Dietrich grabbed a hand grenade, opened the tank hatch and threw it in.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Did he get a single handed tank destruction bagde.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Have not seen it in any photos. I read this somewhere but it was not a biography on Sepp Dietrich. It was something having to do with fighing in the East. I also read it in a book on Hitler's generals.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

If im not mistaken--I think I have seen a picture of Sepp Dietrich wearing a TDB. I remember the picture is in color, and he is sitting with another Officer at a table--both looking at the camera. Anyway--you also see Dietrich with a double half-sized row--of ribbon bars. I think he had an 18-to-20 place ribbon bar (sew-on type)

Another rare photo to see is one with Joachim Peiper also wearing his TDB.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I think I know which photo you are talking about. He does seem to be wearing full regalia as far as decorations. I will have to look for it.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Generaloberst Heinz Wilhelm Guderian, commander of II Panzerarmee in Russia, 1941. He was inside a PzKpfw III at the very first line of battle. The Russians had already been wiped out and the panzers were advancing 80 kilometres a day! So, near one town, they met a batallion of Russian infantry, the father of Panzer divisions took the MG-42 and shot some Russians.

Generalmajor Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel, commander of 7. Panzerdivision, France, 1940. Some days after the crossing of the river meuse, he was inside a PzKpfw III when they came up with some French AT guns. The general ordered his tanks to retreat and wait for the Stukas, but his tank climbed a little bunch of sand in a very dangerous angle and the tank crashed and fell on its side, just in front a French gun. It shot and hit the tank. The driver was killed and a glass piece from the tanks' sight cut the general's cheek. Then, the general picked a hand gun and took two wounded members of the crew out of the tank in the middle of enemy fire.

And I am sure that there were others. But damned Alzheimer...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I have remebered more outstanding cases of generals who, if not took a gun, got into very dangerous situations.

One was Generalleutnant Eduard Dietl when in April 1940 held the Norwegian port of Narvik with only 2.600 men and no naval support. Beside, of those 2.600 men, only half were mountain troops, the other half were unexperienced sailors of the sunk ships. Fighting the British in such a chaotic situation meant that general Dietl had to be moving all around the little front and even taking his pistol out when necessary. The same happened in Crete a year later, when he was one of the first men from the Gebirgsjägern to reinforce the Fallschirmjägern.

Another one, was Generalleutnant Kurt Student, commander of 22. Fallschirmjägerdivision in the Netherlands on May 1940, when he jumped with his men and held with a hard fight the bridges in Holland, waiting for the 9. Panzerdivision. He took a thousand men and lead them to the air fields with a pistol in his hand. After that, when he was in Rotterdam, negotiating the Dutchs' surrender inside a building, he heard shots, men from the motorised regiment LSSAH had arrived the city and started shooting some Dutch soldiers in the streets. General Student started yelling the SS men to cease fire from a window, but the men of the Leibstandarte aimed a MG-34 and shot the general in the forehead. Fortunately Student was a brave man and fought and there was a very good Dutch medic that saved his life.

And I think there are more examples.

But those should be rare cases. Generals MUST NOT shoot soldiers. That is not their job or task and if a general likes to do that, he should not be a general then.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Bump!

Would you bloody read it, Martin? The research was not easy!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I read it, Friedrich, really I did !
Thanks - Dietl was killed in a plane crash in Austria, I think?
You're right, of course, Generals are above such things....even so, it is (emotionally) nice to think of them 'having a go'.

Although not actually taking arms, I think that both Patton and Model liked to 'get their hands dirty' on occasion. And then of course, there is the famous story of Churchill at the Rhine bridge at Wesel on 25th March, 1945. Scrambling out onto the remains of the bridge, with shells and sniper fire uncomfortably close, Churchill was persuaded that withdrawal was a sensible option by US General Simpson.

'The look on Winston's face was just like that of a small boy being called away from his sandcastle on the beach by his nurse !' (Alanbrooke Diaries).

[ 01 August 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Actually, Martin. Eduard Dietl crashed in a plane in Eastern Prussia along with another two Generals and a Lieutenant General... A very heavy loss in just one day!

Actually, I think that Generaloberst Hermann Hoth also liked to get dirty. Patton, obviously. But did he used his Colt "Peace maker" to shoot anyone?

Tell me more about Model! I love these stories!

And yes, Churchill would have liked to punch Hitler by himself!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I hate not being able to remember where I've read something !!

There is definitely a story about Model in ( I think ) the Ardennes offensive. A heavy vehicle was trapped in mud and being pushed by a group of German soldiers.
Another man put his shoulder to the vehicle and one of the men, making a cursing remark about the situation, turned to the newcomer...and it was, of course, Model.

Somehow, one also has to respect ( and also regret ) the manner of his suicide.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Well, I would love to read about Walter Model. He was such a great man. You know that I am specially interested in those 19 men with very special shoulderboards in the Wehrmacht.But Model is a bit more special than others.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

In his honour:



For all the officers who took a gun:

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I think Friedrich has got a new toy !
That's a great photo of Dietrich at the Berghof - you can almost read the print on the Newspaper....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

That toy is called PC... Didn't you like them?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I like them, all right.. it's just that I haven't a clue how to do that with my PC...

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I have thought that all the Africa generals should be taken on account in this thread. Because all had and liked to command their men from the very front, on board of tanks and other vehicles. That is why the general casualties in Africa were so horrible.

Generalleutnant Von Prittwitz, commander of 15. Panzerdivision was killed when his Mark IV was hit by a Brittish 25 pounders in Tobrouk, 1941.

General der Panzertruppen Ludwig Crüwell, commander of the Afrika Korps was shot down in his Fieseler Storch during the Gazala offensive in 1942. We was wounded and captured.

General der Panzertruppen Walther Nehring, commander of the Afrika Korps was severely wounded when an artillery shell exploted in his command vehicle, three metres away, he was having an officers meeting, during the 2nd battle of El Alamein.

The same day that Nehring was wounded. Generalmajor Georg von Bismarck, commander of 21. Panzerdivision was killed when his tank passed over an anti-tank mine.

And finally, during the 3rd battle of El Alamein, on October 23rd, the commander of Pazergruppe "Afrika", General der Panzertruppen Georg Stumme died of a heart attack in the middle of the combat. He was inside a tank.

Several days later. The commander of the Afrika Korps, General der Panzertruppen Wilhelm von Thoma, with his best uniform and all his medals got inside a Mark IV and attacked the British. He was captured and hours later, he was having dinner with Monty...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

PzJgr, the pic of Peiper is in the book: Tank Killers.

Good shots Friedrich--I especially like the Dietrich color shot reading the newspaper. Nice to see his ww1 Panzer Assault Badge. I can almost tell all of his decorations on his double-lined sew on ribbon bar.

Also, I like the color shot the Gebirgejager General (didnt put his name as I cannot think of it at the moment)

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.