Hi Crazy: Well said with that last statement.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

Same here, Crazy.

Perhaps I should have clarified that Hitler indirectly assisted democracy. Of course he never would directly.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Now that argument makes some sense. I certainly don't think Hitler liked, believed in, or even considered democracy viable. I remember reading quotes (or at least paraphrases!) from Hitler on the Atlantic wall, talking about how the "hardened" soldiers of facism would easily defeat the "soft" American soldiers fighting for their "weak democracy". So he couldn't have personally thought much of democracy. And during the third reich- don't think we would call the nazi government democratic!
But that being said, I think it's also clear that Hitler had even stronger dislike for Communism. I've never read it, but I get the idea that "Mein Kampf" has plenty of anti-communist/ anti-bolsheveik ideas. SO it becomes kind of like the lesser of evils...

Hitler and his reich kind of formed a boundary... because they fought so hard against the russians, and becuase germany is sort of centrally located in Europe. If communism (Stalin) wanted to expand, they would have necessarily have had to deal with germany (Hitler), thus making a conflict very likely. The biggest thing here was the early failures of russia/successes of germany. Since Stalin had to become on of the allies, this garaunteed that germany (territorial germany) would become the "spoils of war"... By this I mean that the post-war situation of germany would be decided by ALL the allies, which would in turn limit the gains of the russians in said decision.

In other words, germany's early successes against russia garaunteed that Russia would have to approve a post-war balance of power with all the allies.

I think that makes sense anyway... is this kind of what you were going after as well, dasreich?

(and today, I'll be playing the part of kenny as well...)

BLAH BLAH BLAH CRAP CRAP CRAP

sorry- just can't get over the fact that this thread is actually generating some good discussion!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I couldnt have said it better myself. As a result of being forced to join the allies, Russias possible expansion was limited.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

So far I just notice that no support to the thesis was given that the uSSSR was about to roll over Europe.

In fact, they _did_ roll over half of Europe _after_ Hitler attacked the USSR. It's hard to get to Berlin otherwise.

USSR expansion and territorial goals between 1939-1941 were covered by the Hitler-Stalin pact. So it's hard to argue that Hitler stopped Stalin from something, in fact he "opened" Eastern Europe to Stalin (first by offering him Poland, later by invading the USSR and losing it).

Come on: Please prove me that 9/11 wasn't a CIA conspirancy... You can't provide evidence for something what wasn't there. It's up to those to support the claims THEY make (like "The Soviets would have taken Europe without Hitler"). All I'm saying that I don't see any hard facts supporting this thesis.

On the other hand I see - just for example, not to play the excuse song fort Uncle Joe - an aggression of the Western democratic states and Poland against the USSSR back in the 1920-ies, the same capitalist western powers giving away Czechoslovakia without even contacting the Soviets, the same Western powers asking the Soviets later to fight "with them" (GB /w 4 Divisions, France w/ 100 Division, USSR /w 300 Divisions) against Germany, but without being allowing them to march through Poland ( - how should that work?), the same western powers trying to shift Hitler's "hunger" away from them towards Eastern Europe.

Yes, the USSR - as any nation at this time - had territoral interests (see Molotov's visit in 1940), but Hitler opened the door by offering the division of Poland and declaring his clear uninterest in the fate of the Baltic, States, Finnland and Bessarabia/Bukovina.

A Germany w/o Hitler might not wanted to invade Poland. So _if_ Stalin wanted to get a hand on Poland, he would have had to do this all by himself, against all other European powers, hardly imaginable.

Cheers,

[ 10 September 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Andy, these are theories... of course there will be no "hard facts" for some of them. We are theorizing about something that COULD have happened. You could have addressed your comments in more of a polite manner...
And on the expansionist attitude of Stalin and early communists, come on... One of communism's central beliefs was to convert other governments into allies (a.k.a. other communists). And with the benefit of hindsight, we can see clearly that Stalin was eager to expand, even at the expense of the other allies (the partitioning of post-war germany).

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hi Andy: What other European countries were going to stop Russia? England by itself? Do you think that Russia was so weak that France would be able to stop it? Had Stalin had the opportunity to expand Russia without interference from Germany he probably would have.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

If Europe let Hitler, a relatively minor threat prior to ww2, walk over them, the big powerful USSR would have no trouble securing its demands. And if they did try to resist, the USSR would have rolled over them. Remember, the Soviets had the largest army in the world; and Stalin was the type of person to use it to convert countries to communism, by force if need be. Why didnt they ever launch this attack? Hitler got the drop on them. And consequently brought the USSR into the Allied fold, limiting their future territorial prospects.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Damn, dasreich- you made that sound a lot clearer and simpler than I could!
nice job...

[ 10 September 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Thank you, Crazy.

I was at school and trying not to get caught, so I had to be brief!

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I think that this topic...which used to be about liking or disliking Hitler has sufficiently diverged from that!
I am going to start a new topic in "Battle for Europe" specifically about Hitler and Stalin and the Conquest of Europe.
Link to new topic New Topic
If you want to continue the original post of liking or disliking Hitler go right ahead...but please continue the Hitler/Stalin thing in the new thread. thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10 September 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]

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Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. -- Sir Winston Churchill

Well, Adolf Hitler is for sure one of the most polemic and interesting people in human History.

Hitler was not as brilliant as himself though he was nor as dump as other said.

He was a tremendous leader, had carisma and a tremendous intelligence. Otherwise, how could a corporal and failed-artist have conquested Europe and provoked the world's worst slaughterness?

Adolf Hitler knew how to do things, in many cases he got surrounded of the adequate people, the best for the job and he knew how to exploit Germany's potential. And here is something which makes him different from many other hated leaders and politicians. He had quite a lot of personal power and did horrendous things, but his whole vision for Germany were not selfish at all. If he had succeeded he would have given the German people many things they wanted: a powerful nation, richness, prestige, lands and a nice country to live in. Göring, by example took many resources from the German people to buy-steal his art works and decorate his fancy houses. But more modest Hitler, in his twisted mind had nice ideals for the German people if we see it in some way...

As a military mind mind he turned to be a great man. Perhaps it is exagerate to call him "The Greatest warlord of all time" unless it is in an ironic way... He was guilty of some of Germany's greatest victories and defeats. It is very unfair and unwise to blame him for all of it: he came up with some innovative plans which turned to be great victories and he came with orders that lead to enormous defeats. But as we have discussed here: he was also advised by many people and that influenced his decisions.

One example is the "Sichelschnitt". Hitler did not like the OKH's "Gelb". Hitler liked impetous and innovative plans. He himself had already started looking at the potential of the Ardennes region in 1940, just a few days that Manstein and Runstedt's memorandums started arriving to Zossen. When he heard the plan, he loved it. And after that he came up with many weird operations like those by the Brandenburger paratroopers in Holland, dressed like Dutch Army men. It worked. Hitler also had the idea of using fast war ships ina lightning and surprise attack on Norway. It worked. These might be little details which Hitler came up with in a smooth way and that experts made it real, but some of his tactic ideas were actually very good, let's not talk about his strategies in the general picture...

What it really did not work where his methods to reach those ambitious tasks. What I really dislike about him is the way he saw his own troops sometimes: just as numbers in papers. He wasted German soldiers, made them suffer and disappointed them. Hitler killed millions of people; horrible. But in any way it was a war (I am in no way approving genocide) but what is unconceabale is that he had killed his own devoted men! They would have done anything for their Führer. At least, what he should have done was to stay with them and gave them what he had promissed!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Yes, Hitler was a convincing person to many, with his talk he could persuade a whole lot of people, even von Manstein " was not at his best with Hitler ", I think said by Guderian. And the 1930 politics, like 1938 with Chamberlain were mostly won by Hitler´s attitude and his person. Somehow though Halder was not convinced, but Keitel then again had a totally new vision, and certainly "fell in love with him".Every time a soldier visited him for a medal, I always read that they received inner strength and belief in the cause in the war, even in late 1944/early 1945. He certainly had the charisma. Not talking about the mass hysteria he created.
The pics tell a lot on him. After July 20th he got the final blast, and I believe he must have thought he was a God´s messenger, as if you gathered the knowledge at the time you otherwise would have realized that game was over.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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I personally think that Hitler was insane.....

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MUSTANGS FOREVER
FACTS ARE JUST THERE TO ARGUE YOUR OPINIONS

That is your personal opinion, but nota valuable arguement.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Hitler= evil scum ( no if`s but`s or maybe`s )

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

I think he was insane, especially by the end of the war, when he was taking all those 'medications'.

Realistically, everything, anyone says here is an opinion...

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"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

I know, but if my opinion is that GFM Otto is a f*n b*d!!! Is it true? NO!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I might just be Friedrich, everyone's thoughts are their opinion, and they are just as valid as anyone else's, usually.

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Comments, questions or feedback? Contact me at

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

Which brings me to my favorite quote:
"Opinions are like assholes...everybody has one!"

(Sgt. O'Neill in 'Platoon')

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

There's a lot of mythology floating around here.
By 1924, the German economy was in shambles.
The Dawes Plan restructured Germany's economy, creating a national bank and consolidating strategic industries into massive cartels. Huge foreign loans were used to get the economy running again.
The crash of 1929 created further problems for the German economy, and American banker Owen D. Young was sent by the Allied Reparations Committee to draft a new plan easing German reparations payments. By this time, the seeds were sown for the future National Socialist economy--a loose form of State Capitalism where both the Big Bourgeoisie and Petit Bourgeoisie joined together with the government to squeeze the living shit out of the German working class.
Hitler had nothing to do with this massive economic reorganization. Hitler's rise from total obscurity to the leader of a para-military political party can be attributed to one--and only one--thing: money. Lots of money. The Nazi Party had a lot of funding to get it off the ground. Read Frank Sutton's Wall Street and The Rise of Hitler for a detailed account of this process. Hitler was a product of the growing international banking system. Once in control, the Nazis slashed wages, destroyed labor unions, greatly extended the working day, enacted forced labor, prison labor, and slave labor. Workers' rights were abolished and the German People were put under the yoke. And that's how HITLER steered the German economy. The German people suffered terribly under his reign.

Buit, Knight, people were suffering before his rule as well. Massive unemployment, increasing poverty, politicians unwilling to risk unpopularity in order to solve problems. Hitler's solution was short term, certain groups suffered but the economy did turn around through a Keynesianesque effort at state spending as Sweden had already started. Goring plundered German overseas securities, Eastern European states were coralled into trade deals and, of course, the gold reserves of Austria and the Czech Republic helped fuel the arms drive.

But it was all short term, kids raiding the piggy bank with no thought to the future.

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War