HATE\LIKE HIM h'mm

Admired the ambition but not the results. Isn't it usually that way with despots? Can't do good if you are not in a position of power but you have to do bad in order to get to that position of power.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

The usual response is "He killed the jews and is a very bad man"

Yes, he did. I of course don't support that in any way, but more must be looked at. He did plunge Europe into a war, but he also saved it from communism. A Germany without Hitler would have been weak indeed. The Soviets would have taken Europe in a matter of months had they been free to do so.

In fact, one may make the argument that democracy is still alive today because of Hitler...

Keep in mind, I dont necessarily subscribe to that...

Suffice it to say, Hitler had a BIG impact on the world. For better or worse, try and find someone who hasnt heard of him.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

that is true DasReich. Afterall, Hitler did make Time's man of the year.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Adolf Hitler is certainly one of the most polemic historical characters ever. That is why he can be exploited for making money (as some stupid "historians" have been arguing theses last months about his sexuality... ). He is a person who can be admired or hated. But what he achieved, the good and the bad. He certainly did a lot of good things in the 1930s, starting for supressing the red menace. He made the streets safe, he gave the Germans what they wanted: a powerful nation, a great one in which they could live quietly in and be proud of it. But unfortunately, he had some disgusting ideas and muvh more disgusting party mates who were pigs and ruined it all. We know what happened next...

By the way:

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Welcome back my friend! Oh no, zwei Fuhrers! Will the real Fuhrer with the medals step forward.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I'm back! And I will step forward before all those b... who dare to still my avatar!!!!!!!!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Let us hope no one will ever still your avatar again. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Hitler really did surround himself with idiots. Goering and Hess made a hell of a mess...

Seriously, though, seeing as how this is a general thread, does anyone know if Hitler has any surviving relatives today? I might be doing my senior research paper on him...

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I'm not certain, because it's been a while but I do remember seeing a BBC program ages ago, about Uncle Adolf and seem to recall it being mentioned that he has living relatives in the US. I checked our local phone books and there aren't any living in Sydney (at least under that name)

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Rule 1, on page 1, of the book of war, is 'Do not march on Moscow'... Rule 2, is 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China' - Monty, House of Lords speech, 1962

With all due respect, it's sometimes hard for me to read utterly - sorry, I can't spare the word -nonsense like that and keep calm.

He saved Europe from Communism? I have a map here of 1933 and one of 1945, uhm, let's see, pretty inflation of the color RED betwenen those two dates. Let me guess, your point is that, WITHOUT Hitler thankfully "forstalling" Stalin and killing off 27 m Russians, Stalin would have surely rolled over up to the Atlantic coast in 1941/42/43(choose what's convenient)? Nice speculation, too bad that you have to proof that.

Please compare the maximum territory claims made by Molotov in 1940 to the original outcome in 1945.

As for Hitler saving the ass of democracy...I hope you have some EVIDENCE suopporting that.

Really? So you're just parroting lunatic nonsense made by others, without supporting it?

In fact, one may make the argument that if Germany would have lost WW I unconditionally and totally, being occupied, seperated and reduced to a flintstone country back in 1918, along with executing 90 % of the German conversatives, industrials etc, and shrinking the population by a couple dozen millions (starvation), World
would have been a better place now.

Note that I dont necessarily subscribe to that.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Hitler did not save Europe from anything. German apologists in particular often argue that the roadbuilding and reduction in unemployment etc justified his seizure of power in 1933 and things only went wrong later. That if he had not come to power in 1933 the KPD would have taken over.

This is simply untrue. The police state started almost on day one, rule of law and treatment of the mentally and physically disabled, destruction of religios organisations and charities, even Nazifying charity through Winter Relief to the exclusion of all other forms. A country in uniform from the age of 6?

I'm Gay, so it wouldn't have been long before I got my pink triangle and probably died in a Concentration Camp (murder and brutality abounded in these institutions at inception) whilst the much vaunted roadbuilders lived in conditions only slightly better and often tried to run away: but as Labour Exchanges in 1936 were ordered to report people who had left their job "for no good reason" were asked to report the young and fit to be sent to a Concentration camp because they were "workshy".

This is Hitler's system. He did not really care about Germany or it's people, they were a vehicle for his own manifest destiny. He was twisted and evil with no redeeming features (not even being gay Friedrich - my community certainly doesn't want him!).

Jumbo

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

easy there, fellas...

That being said, I would have to agree about the spread of communism thing- just look at before and after maps...
Dasreich, I'd be VERY curious to hear how someone would argue that Hitler did anything for democracy...

Well said, Jumbo...

[ 06 September 2002, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

i totally agree with Andy and Jumbo...well said.

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Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. -- Sir Winston Churchill

What the f...?!

What did you mean by this?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I will have to side with Friedrich on this. Hitler helped rebuild a country that was going no where fast. If you take Hitler out of the picture, Germany will continue to struggle while Russia extends its arms further to the west and eventually covering most of Europe. Unfortunately, Hitler took the faith and trust given to him by the German people and used it to create his own personal agenda which ended up destroying Germany a second time.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

One of the tenets of Russian Communism as Lenin saw saw it was a world revolution . Now suppose Germany without Hitler had to face the Soviet war machine on its path to European domination-it would have been swept away along with the rest of Europe. Democaracy, at least in Europe, would have one hell of a time surviving communism spreading like that. Although Eastern Europe was under Soviet domination, thats as far as they got. Western Europe was controlled by the Allies at the end of world war 2, who then persued a containment policy against the Soviets. As for democracy totally being wiped out-i have heard pepole make the case for it-but i myself still have some doubts; which is why i said i didnt subscribe too it.

Come on guys-you need to calm down. This is a forum, not a bar. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, I welcome it in fact. But hurling insults doesnt accomplish anything.

[ 07 September 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: dasreich ]

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

You have evidence that the USSR was about to install a european domination with her "war machine", do you?

Or is this just your personal, unsupported POV?

Cheers,

[ 08 September 2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Hi Andy: You missed a key word in Dasreichs post ( SUPPOSE ), he didnt say they were going to take over Europe but if they wanted to, it would have been easier without Hitler. Russia would want to expand their empire just like Germany tried to do. However, without Germany in the way they would have an easy journey to the coast.

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The soldier above all others prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. General Douglas Macarthur

Exactly. I never said Russia was 100% going to overrun Europe. But they did have their eye on it, and a Germany without Hitler would not have been an effective roadblock, had the USSR invaded. Besides, Soviet Russia WAS expansionist, as shown by their actions in the baltic states, Eastern Europe after ww2, Afghanistan, and other places. Given the oppurtunity provided by a power vacuum in Central Europe, it is entirely possible Stalin would seek to gain continental dominance, and spread communism. Its not a matter of fact of course, but a weak and divided Europe is quite a tempting target.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Interesting fact: When Germany invaded Russia, all the Infantry and armour were in attack positions, and all the supply dumps in forward positions. What does that tell you?

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Ah yes, I heard that before. In fact, I think I read it in one of my books. Ill find the exact quote.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Because certainly, Stalin wanted to expand communism as well as the the territory of the USSR. Without Hitler in the picture. Who would have been able to stop the Red Giant? I think the first victim would have been the hated Poland. And later some other territories. Then it would come the ideological domination of the world... Stalin was an ambitious man...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I sense a lot of ifs flying around.
Let me pick a cold war US President here and make an example if i could. John F. Kennedy who at first was very well respected decided to launch an attack against Russia citing that given the chance the soviet Union was going to invade europe soon as they had the chance...plus they are communist so...it's a good idea.
BUT OOPS
JFK decides that everybody but catholics should be in the US so he sends everybody else to concentration camps and kills 6 million of them...in that number are assorted other peoples thrown in for effect. Also the war causes millions of deaths on both sides and now the US is a smoldering mess...divided in two (the divider being the Mississippi River) Oh and the capitol is also flattened and now the US is occupied by the Russians as well as other allies of them. Of course there was no war and the defending Hitler for a chance idea that the Soviets would invade germany is not a good defense i feel.

I am reading a book right now called Soldat. Not only was Hitler a sadistic leader but he was also a bad commander. After his assassination attempt he executed many innocent military officers and their families. He frequently threw away german troops in hopeless defenses when they could have been withdrawn and used more effectively.
In response to an escape attempt from Berlin before the city was captured he said he would not want to risk dying in the street like a dog...even though as he said that thousands of germans were dying in the street like "dogs." and finally...in his suicide you get a glimpse into his character when in his suicide note he takes no responsibility for the war and blames the german people for the loss.

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Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. -- Sir Winston Churchill