Great stuff Kai. I had wondered about the great ww1 Cavalry Rittmeister's fate. Now I know

You know--it truely is amazing--that someone like me--actually owns a piece of property once owned by this man. Small world eh?

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Found some interesting pics on him:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Stauffenbergroom.htm

__________________

Nice fotos of the Count. I wish they had posted more about his service though.

Thanks again Kai. [img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Carl, if you are talking about the owner of your WWI Rittmeister epoulettes you are totally confused... Graf von Kleist Schmenzin and his son Leutnant Ewald von Kleist have no relation with Generalfeldmarschall Ewald von Kleist, cavalry and Panzer officer who was captured by the British at the end of the war and died some years after that...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Im not confused at all "F," my shoulderboards are from the 5th Uhlan Kav Rgmt, THE Ewald von Kleist who became a Generalfeldmarschall in ww2 was THE only Ewald von Kleist in that Kavalleria Regiment.

Rittmeister is the Kavallerie rank equalling the rank of Hauptmann and for a man to be a Rittmeister he had to be of royal birth--as the ww2 GFM Ewald von Kleist was.

Also--the main source of this info can be found in the 5th Uhlan rangslists--which gives you a complete listing of all officers, NCOs and Men who served in that particular unit from the time when they started publishing rangslists till the unit was disbanded--if it has been disbanded.

A Rangeliste not only gives the complete mans name, but his rank and dates he got his awards. My particular 5th Uhlan Kav Rittmeisters boards date to a period of 1910-1915, based on the Exact style of my Rittmeisters shoulderboards. Therefore, all one has to do is look at the range listes for all men of Rittmeisters rank (which there was only 3 in a 10 year time period dating from 1905 to 1915) and all three of these men--were of royal birth. then judging on the exact style of these shoulderboards (meaning the exact year they were made) and seeing which of these three Rittmeisters served in the 5th Uhlan Kav Rgmt in that year and til 1915, which there was only 1 Rittmeister--and he was Ewald von Kleist. [img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Indeed, my friend. I knew you knew all that. But was the field marshal related to these other Von Kleists?

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Just found great pics of Stauffenberg during his life:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Stauffenbergroom.htm

Enjoy!

__________________

"F" I think they might have been Cousins--not sure.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

From my point of view, Stauffenberg wanted to do the right thing, but was too cowardish to execute it successfully... if he had stayed around longer and taken care, Hitler most likely would have been killed. He ran too early.

He lacked the courage to take the necessary personal risk.

__________________
If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

He had three children and a wife to look after. This is why he had not been selected earlier to carry out the assassination. Only single men were chosen. But at this time, Von Stauffenberg was the only man available to carry the plan out.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Maybe he didn't stay to see if the bomb really killed Hitler, but it is already brave that he brought the bomb with him in a bag to such a meeting.

__________________

CONCERNING THE GENTLEMEN VON KLEIST

To my knowledge, any names of a family/lineage belonging to the nobility is patented, and therefore all those who bear the same noble name are related, albeit in some cases they're related only through a common ancestor several generations back.

CONCERNING GRAF STAUFFENBERG AND HIS ALLEGED COWARDICE

Graf Stauffenberg was indeed willing to sacrifice his life. His co-conspirators would not have it though, since he was essential for the overall command of the coup d'etat itself. He was in fact ordered by Ludwig Beck and the other principals in the plot not to undertake the assassination unless he thought he would survive it. Graf Stauffenberg had little hope of neither success nor ultimate survival, which his testament illustrates.

CONCERNING GRAF STAUFFENBERG "THE TRAITOR"

I will quote Claus Graf Stauffenberg himself here:

"It is now time that something was done. But the man who has the courage to do something must do it in the knowledge that he will go down in German history as a traitor. If he does not do it, however, he will be a traitor to his own conscience."

His brother Berthold expressed a similar view:

"The most terrible thing is knowing that we cannot succeed and yet that we have to do it, for our country and our children".

- Both quotes from Stauffenberg (A Family History 1905 - 1944) by Peter Hoffman, page 243.

CONCERNING THE SUICIDAL VS NON-SUICIDAL ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS

Most of the assassination attempts were meant to be suicidal ones, in order to ensure success. At least the attempts of Freiherr Gersdorff, Breitenbuch, Freiherr Bussche and Kleist were. All except Breitenbuch had or would have had explosives attached to their clothing, while Breitenbuch preferred to rely on a pistol.

CONCERNING THE "SINGLE MEN CHOSEN"

Major-General Helmuth Stieff agreed to carry out an assassination attempt. He had a wife and children. He later withdrew from his mission.

Major-General Henning von Tresckow, family-father, volunteered to make an assassination attack, but couldn't get access to Hitler despite repeated attempts.

Colonel (GS) Joachim Meichssner agreed to carry out an assassination attempt. He also had a family. He later withdrew from his mission.

Colonel (GS) Rudolph-Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff, husband and father, made an unsuccesful assasination attempt on Hitler's life.

Lt-Colonel (Res.) Cesar von Hofacker, a cousin of Graf Stauffenberg's, "husband of a German woman and the father of German children", volunteered to make an assassination attack, but couldn't gain any access to Hitler.

- Both quotes from Stauffenberg (A Family History 1905 - 1944) by Peter Hoffman, page 243.

Major (GS) Joachim Kuhn, co-worker of Stieff, agreed to an assassination attempt on the same grounds as Freiherr von dem Bussche and von Kleist, but could not gain access to Hitler. He was engaged to Graf Stauffenberg's cousin Maria-Gabriele.

Captain (Cav) Eberhard von Breitenbuch, co-worker of Tresckow, family-father, made an unsuccesful assasination attempt.

1st Lieutenant (Res) Werner von Haeften, adjutant to Graf Stauffenberg. Volunteered for an assassination attempt but was dissuaded by his brother on religious grounds and family concerns.

Conclusion: Not only single men was involved in the assassination attempts.

FINALLY

While a succesful assassination would certainly have shortened the war, it would probably have made little difference to the peace.

END TOUCH...

"Yet you will remain with us, defining, leading,
the war-god's lordly herald of the future world,
only enhanced by one eye's sacrifice"

- Poem by Alexander Graf Stauffenberg about his brother Claus.

Good work Alecci. I hope you come visit here more often as yu look like your very knowledgable on Imperial Germany and with some stuff I have going on--you will be of great help.

Welcome to the forums [img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

BTW,

Col. Baron Wessel Freiherr von Freytag-Loringhoven (1899-1944)

Supplied the detonator charge and explosives for Colonel von Stauffenberg.



Initially fond of Hitler's National Socialist program for Germany but later shocked by the Night of the Long Knives massacre.

July 23, 1944: Commits suicide at Mauerwald camp, near the Wolf's Lair.

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Loringhoven.htm

__________________

I happened to find a gallery of pics on Stauffenberg.

So here it is:

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Stauffenbergroom.htm

__________________

A little belated answer on the topic:

First of all, I disagree strictly with Erich H. Possibly, there would have been a civil war; but still there would have been much less fatalties in Germany, and the war would have ended quite a lot sooner.

Secondly, I don't call Stauffenberg a hero. Even though nobody can force him to be a suicide bomber, he was TOO concerned of saving his own ass. If he had stayed until 3 min before the detonation, he could have managed to close the windows again which had been opened in his absence, and he would have avoided his bag getting removed from Hitler. He subordinated his own livesaving to the success of the mission, even though success of the mission was all too essential for saving his life (with Hitler dead, quite likely nobody would have had time to chase the culprits.

Stauffenberg was too yellow - he was the wrong man for the job. So I can't call him a hero.

__________________
If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

Just wondering about the views of the newer members...?

__________________

How many Germans that people now worship as war heroes raised not a finger aganst Hitler? At
least Stauffenberg did something.

I once read an old proverb that went something like this: "No matter how far down the wrong path you have gone, turn back". Stauffenberg may have supported a madman initially, but he later tried to fix Germany's problem. In my opinion, he's a hero, much more of a hero than can be said for thousands of other Germans with similar opportunity and no inclination to do the same.

__________________
All your WWII Forums are belong to us!!

I think he was good. He realized hitler was evil, and tried to kill him so the bloody war could end. [img]graemlins/gi.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/gi.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/gi.gif[/img]

__________________
The objective of war is to not die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his! - General Patton
Older men declare war. It is the youth that must suffer. - General Patton

Again as we have many new members- opinions on Stauffenberg?

__________________

Although Stauffenberg had the right intention, I think he did more harm than good. A lot of innocent Germans were killed because there were suspected ties between them and the plot.

__________________