"Fate has offered us this opportunity, and I would not refuse it for anything in the world. I have examined myself before God and my conscience. It must be done because this man [Hitler] is evil personified."
- Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg after gaining access to Hitler's briefings.

This has lately been on my mind, as he was a war hero, was severly wounded, yet was convinced that Hitler must be killed.

What is your view on him? Was he unselfish here or did he try to take the power and be one of the rulers in the post-Hitler Germany or maybe the only ruler?

I have a feeling on him that for most part his ideas might have been sincere. Yet it was the other men of the clique that used him rather than were collaborators, as they did not do a thing while the bomb was set to explode.It seems like they were ready to put the blame on Stauffenberg in case the bombing would fail.Well, we know the rest after that.

So, Hero or Traitor? Whats it going to be?

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Interesting topic, Kai...
I don't actually know too much about Stauffenberg... I think the key here would be to have some idea of what Stauffenberg knew and what he had been exposed to. Had he seen some of the atrocities the nazis committed? The camps, or something like that? Did he have family or close friends who were suffering because of Hitler's reich?
I think this would be key here... if Stauffenberg was reacting to some those things, then I could believe that he was really acting for the "greater good" of germany. But without any details of his motivations, one does have to wonder what kind of plans Stauffenberg and the rest of the conspirators had in mind for once Hitler was gone. It could be that they simply wanted to take power...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I would say that he would be a hero when the overall picture is taken into perspective. Was Hitler the true leader he had the German people believe. Not at the late stage of the war. The war in Europe was his and not the German people's. I do not think Stauffenberg's aim was to become Fuhrer but to get rid of the seated Fuhrer and allow the German people some relief from the war and throw themselves at the mercy of the allies. Nothing could be worse (in his eyes) then the hell that they were living under Hitler. So, I say hero.

[ 30 September 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Hard to say on Stauffenburg. On one side--I agree with him in trying to effect a change in leadership and sparing Germany the much worse fate--the added destruction and the other millions of deaths that occurred. If this had happened--you would HAVE to call him a HERO.

BUT

As a man who swore an oath (giving his word) and trying to force a change in the Administration, you would HAVE to call him a TRAITOR.

I personally would have preferred him to be called a hero in either case. I think he was a proper aristocratic Officer who could have become in later years--a great leader in Germany.

Certainly this man was no coward--I think his injuries prove that fact.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

To me, von Stauffenburg was a very brave man.

He had been a staff officer in Poland and the East, and after witnessing the severe treatment dealt to Jews and other Ethnic races, in the region, requested a transfer to North Africa.

It was in North Africa that he was severely injured and whilst recuperating decided that something had to be done to stop Hitler. He basically decided then and there that he would be the one to kill Hitler.

Once he was transferred into a position that granted him access to operations meetings at which Hitler was present, it was only natural that he seek out and was sought out by the anti-Hitler group.

The July 20 attempt was actually the 3rd try against Hitler. The other two (on the 7th and 15th of July I think) were called off because the conspirators wanted to assassinate Himmler as well, since it was reasoned that he would take over on Hitlers death, and he didn't attend the meetings on those days.

Von Stauufenburg was very brave. Anyone entering into a meeting with Hitler was searched numberous times, they were not allowed to carry their sidearms, or even ceremonial daggers, and were constantly under the watchfull eyes of the SS guards. It would take a very brave man to walk calmly through the checkpoints and security checks knowing that he was carrying a bomb in his briefcase.

And imagine, if it hadn't been for someone moving that briefcase out of the way at the last moment, the end of the war may have been very different... and a lot of lives might have been saved.

If you agree that Germany's war was already lost in July 1944...

German war deaths 9/39 to 7/44: 2,835,000
German war deaths 8/44 until 5/45: 4,826,000

This 4.8 million GERMANS died because Staufenberg was not successful. If he would have been a succesfull TRAITOR, these 4.8 m people (not even mentioning the other deaths among Axis, Allies and in occupied Europe) would have enjoyed life, had families etc.

Those of us who lost family members in Europe after July 1944 aren't questioning Stauffenberg and the other "traitors".

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Stauffenberg was an aristocrat and as such needed land to continue the prosperity of his lineage. He saw that Germany was being pounded from all sides and saw that to continue his family's wealth he had to get rid of Hitler. Plus, his war wounds were quite extensive, and he may have held Hitler responsible for suffering those wounds for what appeared to be an effort that was in vain...

I think he was a great man-he was righteous and wanted to end the pure evil that was Hitler...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

War hero.

National TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He didn't realise, as well as all the remaining fools in the plot that they could have provoked a worse situation in Germany: a civil war!!! That is worst than anything! Because Germany would have been smashed and slaughtered by the Soviets, Western Allies and by GERMANS!!! It was a very bad plot and thank God it didn't suceed!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

The plot was badly-thought-out. But for me Stauffenberg was a hero. He took what was probably the most difficult decision of his life. IMHO it was still the correct decision to take. Had the plot been successful, Germany would have gained something. If the war had ended at that point, millions more on all sides would have survived. Had it never happened at all, a few thousand more would have survived too. It was worth the risk.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

#

Friedrich, will all due respect, i disagree entirely!

As much as I agree with you that the 7/44 plot was too late, i say it was still the right thing to do!

War was lost in July 44. Cutting the losses was the only one left to Germany at that time.

Please tell me what worst case war end in July 44 would be worth 4.7 million additional death Krauts and 50% under Soviet rule comnpared to the original outcome in May 1945.

Unconditional surrender?
1/2 of Germany under Comumunist rule?
Nazism being worth a discussable "working" alternative?
Auschwitz on full run until the last "unworthy" turned into ashes?

Maybe I just disagee with you that too many GERMAN people believed entirely in the superioriricy of Nazism in July 1944 - I say: they learned their lesson by that date and wanted nothing but peace, but not 4.8+ million more birch crosses. a dictorian ruled Europe or unconditional surrender and a 'Morgenthau-Germany'!

War was lost for Germany at 7/44. 'Cutting the losses' is a realistic scenario giving that fact. At least I (as a investor) would have sold any 'Germany"-stocks at this time,

Stauffenberg was a traitor to Nazism, yes, but also a hero to to the German people. to democratism and finally everything in (most of us) is believing in (except the 'unworthy' ones)

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

No, that isn't true!

The slaughtery would have been much worse! Not only talking about the dead-number. Can you imagine a German fighting a German? Do you comprehend what CIVIL WAR is?! The Soviets would have obviously taken advantage of it. 'Divide and you'll win' Remember? Do you think Stalin was a good guy who would have said: 'Poor Germans, now that Hitler is gone I will search for peace'. Hahaha! Naiv! I can perfectly see Himmler and Göring fighting each other for the power! I can see the German people NOT accepting the provisional government! Killing Hitler in July 21st 1944 was NOT a good idea. Thank God the briefcase was kicked away...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

There was not much left of a big National Socialist movement in the ordinary people's mind back in summer 44.

Nazism had no chance of survival without the person of Adolf Hitler. The ordinary German people would not go onto street to protest FOR Hitler and for continiuing the war in summer 1944. At least after Stalingrad, the majority of "Volksgenossen" realized that Herr Hitler fucked it up entirely; they had enough time to think about that during their nights in the cellars. Best prove is the complete collapse of Nazi ideology back in May 1945. The German people became sick of Nazism once the inconvenience of war knocked on thier own doors and most German families had at least one birch cross with thier name on it somewhere in Russia.

If Stauffenberg and his conspirancy would have eliminated Hitler and substituted it by a semi-democratic, conservative military junta, there would be no civil war in Germany - you need citizens to fight that war on the streets for Hitler and the continuation of the war.

There is also no sight whatsoever that Stalin wouldn't have acted according to what was already agreed in Teheran or Casblanca.

German surrender in July 1944 sounds good to me. Would have saved Germany and other nations much.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

H E [img]smile.gif[/img] W A S [img]smile.gif[/img] A H E R O!

[ 04 October 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: mott5ranch ]

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Beer, it's not just for breakfast!

Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg traitor
world hero

Yeah... build him a monument...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I would but--I need to borrow the money to do so. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

We already have monuments to him. If you look at Berlin you'll find a "Strasse des 20. Juli" (ironically the road was planned by Speer AFAIK) and I am also very sure that we have a Stauffenberg-Kaserne.

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„Solange man nicht mit dem Kopf unterm Arm rumläuft geht es doch noch!" Erwin Rommel

Stauffenberg in my view was a sane man in a nation which had gone insane.
He saw the hell which was desending on Germany, and that the only way to stop it or reduce the effects was to cut out the cancer at the heart of it, Hitler

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Human heart cannot be attacked by cancer...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

"Human heart cannot be attacked by cancer..."

I was talking about the heart of a nation or its soul. National Socialism was a cancer that was eating away everything that had ever made Germany great.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Stauffenberg was not the right man for this mission - he had a wife and family. Because of this he wanted to survive himself. Hence a briefcase with a 15 minute timer.

All the plots against Hitler failed for this reason. It is FAR harder to pull off a successful assassination and escape with your life, than to carry out an assassination and NOT escape yourself.

Best person to pick for a mission like this is a suicide bomber. Someone prepared to activate a three SECOND timer, throw the briefcase at Hitler or jump on top of him while holding it, and suffer the consequences.

I'd like to think that in Stauffenberg's place I'd be prepared to do this. Actually, from one point of view, it is better that way, since you should be able to kill yourself if caught. I'd rather blow myself up than be tortured by the Gestapo!

None of the German plotters were actually prepared to voluntarily give up their own lives in order to guarantee success. This makes them less than true heroes in my view.

As far as I know the 24-year old Captain Axel von dem Buscche wanted to blow up Hitler and hisself up with a bomb in 1943. Failed because the planned demonstration of new equipment which was the chance for vom Bussche to get near to Hitler was canceled.

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Hauptmann Axel Freiherr von dem Bussche witnessed the mass killing od thousands of Jews in Budno in 1942. For this he was shocked and mad with the nazi regime. So he volunteered to be the man who killed Hitler in 1943, even if it meant to die in the attempt, but getting a captain from the front in front of the Führer was nearly impossible. But Oberst Von Stauffenberg had planned that a man, during a fashion-parade of new uniforms before Hitler should kill Hitler by throwing himslef towards the Führer and blow a bomb and captain Von dem Bussche was perfect for the job: he was willing to die and was tall and handsome, perfect for a model. But the parade was cancelled because the deposit of the uniforms was destroyed during an Allied bombing. Von dem Bussche was recruited by Von Stauffenberg again in 1944, but the captain was wounded by a mortar shell and lost a leg. He could avoid being imprissoned after July 20th. He survived the war and became a lawyer.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun